019: Abuse, Affairs, and Addiction

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Dave Schramm  00:03

On today's episode, Liz and I talk with Geoff Steurer about betrayal trauma, and the three A's abuse, affairs and addiction. We dive into each one of these areas of betrayal and Geoff shares some great tips to help both partners through the challenges and struggles of the trauma that is often the result. Geoff Steurer is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, author, presenter and podcaster with over 24 years of experience. He's the co author of "Love You Hate the Porn: healing a relationship damaged by virtual infidelity," and co-hosts the podcast from crisis to connection with his wife, Jody. He's the creator of the trust building bootcamp online video course, and produced workbooks, audio programs, and other courses to help couples and individuals heal from the impact of sexual betrayal, unwanted pornography use, partner betrayal trauma, and rebuilding broken trust. He earned degrees from Brigham Young University and Auburn University and has extensive training and experience treating sexually compulsive behaviors and betrayal trauma. Geoff has been married for over 26 years, and he and his wife Jody are the parents of four children. We hope you enjoy the show.

Dave Schramm  01:25

Hey there friends, welcome to the stronger marriage connection. I'm Dr. Dave here at Utah State University along with our psychologist, Liz Hale, we are dedicating our lives to bring you the best research and the tips and tools to help you have the marriage of your dreams. Okay, I am super excited about our guests today. And the topic is a serious and an important one as well. All right, he is a marriage and family therapist. He's an author. He's a presenter and has an awesome podcast of his own, he does with his wife called from Crisis to Connection. Welcome to the show, the one and only Geoff Steurer.

Geoff Steurer  02:00

Hey, guys, thanks for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Liz Hale  02:03

Thank you.

Dave Schramm  02:04

Yeah, Geoff. It's so good. Thanks so much for coming on. Now, Geoff. I've known of you for more than a decade, probably even 15 years through our dear friend and mentor, Dr. Wally Goddard, who is a legend in his own right.

Geoff Steurer  02:17

Oh yeah

Dave Schramm  02:18

He's amazing. So if you haven't heard Dr. Wally's, you gotta go back and listen to that episode. So that's a mutual friend that Geoff and I have. Okay. So Geoff, you've been a licensed marriage and family therapist for more than 24 years now, and have seen countless couples. Now, I got to ask right off the bat, have you always focused on betrayal trauma? Or how and why did you decide to focus your attention on such a specialized area?

Geoff Steurer  02:44

Yeah, that's a great question. The first part of my career, I actually worked with children and did play therapy and thinking that that was what I was going to do. But I noticed as I was working with these children, that I just kept wanting to go upstream and get to their parents. I just had this sense that there was more we could do working with the marital subsystem than just trying to work with the kids. And that my heart just kept getting pulled over to that. And so I ended up leaving that job and started a private practice thinking I was just going to do some some light marriage education, I ended up at Smart marriages in Atlanta for a week, thinking I was just going to be a marriage educator therapist. And the truth is that when people are coming to marriage therapy, they're not coming in just to kind of polish a few things, they're coming in because it's like, dead on arrival, a lot of people are just in the worst possible place, before they're willing to spend the money, take the time, and even maybe suffer some of the embarrassment they might feel going to have to get help for their marriage. And so many of the people that were coming in were coming in with, with really heavy duty stuff. And I also became involved in an outpatient program to help couples dealing with the impact of pornography. So all those things eventually led me into just specializing and working with these couples on the brink, and issues around trust and betrayal, especially around sexual betrayal. And so it's been probably about a 10 year journey into that space. But yeah, that was the path for me.

Liz Hale  04:16

And here you are, you're making an awesome difference for marriages that are really struggling. I can relate to that too, I'm a marriage and family therapist. It's my passion. And oftentimes, what I'll hear from parents is they'll call about the concerns of their kiddos and after a while on the conversation on the phone, I'll say, "why don't we start with the two of you as parents?"

Geoff Steurer  04:34

Right! Let's get there.

Liz Hale  04:36

Right, because parents really are so powerful. And I say that with great respect, Geoff and Dave, because I think when parents can do better, they really are the ultimate helpers for their children.

Geoff Steurer  04:47

Oh yeah, I agree. I remember years ago, my wife and I were building a home and our oldest son at the time, he was probably three or four years old, and all the sudden he became super helpful around the house. He was becoming like "Mr. Fix Everything" and juat super helpful, totally different than how a normal little kid would be. And my wife was reading an article that says some some signs of stress in children are when they become super helpful. And we realized that we had been so  compromised by this house building project and frequent arguments and time talking alone, that this poor little kid was just trying to like stabilize the ship here. And so we pulled ourselves together, started focusing on our marriage and being more present and all the sudden, he just became a regular kid again.

Liz Hale  05:39

That is so honest of you, and something most of us can all relate to, we don't realize how stress affects little kids. How it affects all of us, even our children. We think maybe they're going to be immune to it or not notice it all. But they just pick it up, don't they? They're little sponges. You focus, you have quite a bit on your podcast and in your practice on the three areas, the three A's right? The addiction, abuse, adultery. Can we break each one of those down and discuss the similarities and differences, as well as maybe some tips and resources for couples who experienced any or maybe even all of them? If we could start with abuse, please? The type of abuse and severity will vary from person to person, couple to couple, but the trauma and the emotional and physical pain is devastating. What do you say to couples, individuals who have been abused?

Geoff Steurer  06:31

Oh yeah, let's dive right in. Before we jump into the specifics about abuse, I just want to zoom out real quick just for the couples listening because Sue Johnson talked about what she calls the contraindications, which is that we don't recommend you do marriage counseling right out the gate if you're dealing with active abuse, addictions, affairs or abandonment.

Liz Hale  07:00

It's not appropriate, right?

Geoff Steurer  07:01

Yeah and it doesn't mean that you can't seek help for those things. It just means that those aren't marriage problems. They infect the marriage, but they're not caused by a marriage. And so it's really important to recognize a lot of people go into marriage counseling when there is abuse thinking "I've got to fix this". But with abuse there's a power differential, which means that one person is diminishing the other person. They're overpowering them from a place of physical size, physical force, they could use words, they can use silence, they can invoke even spirituality or God and there's all kinds of ways to control or overpower another person for your benefit. And abuse is extremely destructive and it's really hard to have an ongoing safe, connected, growing thriving relationship with one person even if he or she sporadically engages in abusive behaviors. It has to be confronted and addressed for the relationship to thrive.

Liz Hale  08:15

Indeed.

Dave Schramm  08:17

Man that's tough. What do you recommend as the first steps with this Geoff? And I'm so glad that you set that up because it's not like "okay, hey I'm gonna drag him or her to to a therapist" because you just have to be really careful with that. What do you recommend if someone's listening right now who may think there's manipulation or physical, heavy duty sexual abuse? First steps for them?

Geoff Steurer  08:44

Yeah. If you wonder if you're being abused, and I'll zoom out again real quick because context is everything. All of us do abusive things in our marriages, we've all given our partner the silent treatment, right? Because it works to control people, it works to get our way. We've all been guilty of little things or even big things that were hurtful to our partner, whether we meant to or not. So it's in our natures as humans to try and to really figure out how to manage or not overpower or control somebody through passive or aggressive measures. So I just want to say that, recognize that we're all capable of it and it's not some special group of people out there who are just abusers you know, who are just out there ruining marriages, we all have that inside of us. Now, if you're in a pattern, if you're in a relationship where you're like, "This feels like a pattern this feels like I can't ever bring anything up without them blowing up or they ice me out for days or weeks and don't talk about it or I feel a lot of sexual coercion or if I say no to sex I'll get punished", or you're feeling diminished or you're feeling smaller as a person, you feel like you're having to shrink to survive in this relationship. Then, you know, the tendency would be to bring it up to your partner or want to talk about it, or maybe try and fix things around on the edges and maybe make life a little more comfortable or whatever. The most helpful thing I found initially is to talk to someone who's safe and start getting educated. Those are the two things -getting educated can really help you validate and normalize your experience. I'm not into diagnosing your partner, or trying to like, turn into an armchair psychologist and figure out what exactly is the origin of it because why it's happening is less important than what is the next healthy thing to do right now? A lot of people spend weeks, months, years trying to figure out why. And oftentimes, they'll be like "well, they had a bad childhood so maybe I should keep putting up with it."  No, no, no. What is happening? What is the next healthiest thing to do? Let's focus on what the lived experience is right now. And talking to a safe person can be somebody who's neutral, who's a friend of the marriage, somebody who's mature and has good boundaries. So, a professional is always a safe place, a therapist is always a pretty safe place to start. But recognize too, and there's a whole podcast we could do just on this topic, but Bill Doherty talked a lot about this, that a lot of times marriage counselors or their individual therapists can make things worse for marriages. And so be very careful when you go to talk to them because they may basically say, "oh my gosh, your partner's a monster, you've got to get to safety". And then you end up in a place you never intended to be. So recognize, when you're working with abuse, just because you've been abused doesn't mean it's a deal breaker and the marriage has to end. It just means that there's patterns that have to end, there's interactions that are just so destructive. And you can stand up to that and hopefully still preserve your family. But it doesn't necessarily automatically mean that it's a deal breaker or it's terminal, because that's not the case. I see people pull out of this stuff on a regular basis with that kind of courage, and the right kind of support.

Dave Schramm  12:05

Yeah, that's well said. I like Geoff We'll be right back after this brief message.

Dave Schramm  12:22

And we're back. Let's dive right in. I think it's important to also realize that this doesn't necessarily just affect the couple, right? That connection spills over, as we all know, in children who are witnessing this. There's the inlaws, siblings, parents, grandparents. So I'm sure that there's people listening right now who maybe don't just see these little subtle signs or maybe they come over for dinner and they just maybe see that he grabbed her wrist kind of hard and is doing these subtle things. What can they do? What do you suggest for those who are maybe on the on the outside a little bit? Family, friends, loved ones?

Geoff Steurer  13:01

Yeah, it's such an agonizing thing to see that somebody you love is being mistreated like that. And you do, obviously, want to give people room and time and space to work out things in their relationship because we all struggle. But again, I'll just invoke Bill Doherty once again, I heard him talk about one time that anybody who you invited to your marriage, you also have invited into your marriage, to a degree. And I love that idea. He says a lot of the times the only time we hear about marriage problems is after somebody's getting divorced and all sudden, now it's public and people are talking about it. He says, why can't we have the courage to pull people into our relationships when things are starting to get really bad? And so I think at that point, if you're the one, talking to a parent or talking to a sibling saying "This doesn't feel right," you know, you don't want to dogpile somebody and take sides right out the gate. But you do need to be able to say, "Hey I know so and so's a good guy or she's really great, but I'm really concerned about what I see happening. Are you okay? Are things okay?". I remember years ago, my dad said something to me, he pointed out something he had seen with my wife and I, and he had the courage to say to me, because I was wanting to get into some business stuff with him, and he was so kind and such a gentle person. And he just said "Geoff, I love both of you, but I would never want this to create more stress for your marriage. And I see that you guys are struggling and there's something off there, and I don't know what's going on for you guys but I really think that". And so he kind of set this boundary of "I'm concerned, things seem a little bit off". And he was right, we were we were in a tough phase of our relationship and we were not as stable as we are now. And so back then, it was the right thing. And so him noticing that slowed us down and allowed us to get some help. And I think that family members can be really powerful because they do see you in your unguarded moments, they do see things that other people wouldn't necessarily see. And to have the courage just in a loving way say like, "Hey, is everything okay? I'm concerned." I think that can be very helpful.

Liz Hale  15:17

And no one loves us more than our families, our parents, our siblings, right? And I think it does take an element of courage. Bill Doherty talks, as you are so mindful of him too and we love him here on the Stronger Marriage Connection. But he talks about being a first responder in that regard. Have you heard of his program? He teaches the rest of us how to intervene, how to say something. Because, you know, here's this other element about domestic violence. And we really want to make sure that we're presenting to our listeners too, when is there time to ring the bells? Right? And get law enforcement in? I mean, I so understand that many couples do make mistakes and they can recover. I've worked with couples where 911 has been called, and they can recover. And then, I don't know where that fine line is with domestic violence, do you have any thoughts about that determination? Just so we're really clear.

Geoff Steurer  16:11

Yeah, I think there's domestic violence long before there's physical violence. And those patterns are more about a mindset, they're rooted in entitlement and powerlessness and shame and other things like that. And so these patterns are coming up long before somebody's oftentimes physically assaulted, or a child is. And I just, I don't have a lot of tolerance for it, I think you have to call this stuff out pretty early. And I just believe anybody who's going to react defensively and get more aggressive when you ask about this or call it out. It's even more of a reason why you need to say something, if they're that, if they're that disregulated, or they're that unsafe or unstable, you probably need to get to safety. And I do think that somebody who's serious about it, like my dad pointing this out to us, there wasn't an abuse going on. But there was relational tension, they could feel it. You know, it caused us both to look inward and say, "okay, we're not in as good place we need to be, we need to take this seriously". Well, if you bring something up to somebody, and they slow down and take a look at it, then it's totally workable. And so you got to have the courage to put that in front of somebody so they can come in contact with what other people are experiencing, and then make a choice to do something about it, or fight back. But then again, it becomes more information, right?

Liz Hale  17:36

You bet. Yeah. Well said, thank you.

Dave Schramm  17:38

Yeah. Hey, Geoff, let's shift to another A that you talked about, in fact, quite a bit on your podcast. The A of affairs or adultery. According to data from the General Social Survey, and different surveys report this slightly differently, but about 20% of men and 13% of women reported that they've had sex with someone other than their spouse while they're married. There's gonna be gender gap differences, and we know that from research, but this is just emotionally devastating and traumatic for both partners. Right? And what practical tips can you give to listeners who have experienced this or again, who have loved ones who experienced this type of betrayal and trauma?

Geoff Steurer  18:21

Yeah, thanks. Infidelity. It's super common, believe it or not, and there's so many ways to cheat now in 2022. You used to have to really go out of your way to do it. And now it can happen so easily. So in terms of the person who's been betrayed, the first thing to know is that you're not crazy, you've probably been lied to and gaslighting is becoming a word more people are familiar with - using psychological manipulation. There's been some lying, there's been some manipulation, there's been some blame and stuff that you probably have been feeling and second guessing and whatever. So a lot of times the person who's been betrayed, it's almost like when they learn about it, it's almost like they've had a second brain already registering that something else has been going on. And so recognize that you're not crazy. And sometimes it's out of the blue and you had no idea and then you'll feel crazy. The critical thing is, recognize that somebody else cheating on you, is not something that you created, it's not something you did, it's an individual choice. Now, you might have been the worst spouse in the world, but they still would have had a choice of how to respond to you as the worst spouse in the world and cheating is one of those choices. And so recognize that if you immediately turn this into "well, I must have done this", then you basically compromise your own healing and now you're trying to focus on trying to change something that is not your responsibility. Your job, when you've been betrayed, is to seek help, like you would after a car accident or you've been hit by somebody. You got to seek help for yourself and not spend all your effort trying to figure out how you caused the accident. That's the job of the person who cheated. They have to take responsibility, recognize this was a choice, this is something I did. And as a response to whatever their issue may be, but that separation of responsibility early on is critical for stabilizing a couple.

Dave Schramm  20:24

And what about those who are on the other other side of that, the flip side?

Geoff Steurer  20:30

So the person who cheated?

Liz Hale  20:32

Partners, right? The partners who were betrayed?

Geoff Steurer  20:36

Okay, so I'm sorry, I'm not sure your question? You're asking what should the partner who has been betrayed do?

Dave Schramm  20:42

Yeah, so both of their perspectives, because it's trauma for both of them going through this, right?

Geoff Steurer  20:50

Yeah, who the person who's cheated is overwhelmed, a lot of the times they feel powerless. They feel shocked and surprised that they've ended up in a place they never wanted to. Very few people start off thinking that it's going to go this far, you know, Shirley Glass wrote a powerful book called Not Just Friends about this kind of a slippery slope toward affairs. And so most people that cheat generally feel almost kind of victimized by the affair, as weird as that sounds, even though they're in charge of it and they're responsible for it. They get caught and swept up in something that they never intended. And there's so much distorted thinking that they have to take accountability for and so they get overwhelmed very easily because they've betrayed their deepest values and protecting the relationship. The person who's been betrayed is experiencing betrayal trauma, which is a form of PTSD, but in a lot of ways, and I don't want to compare people's traumas, but it has some unique factors to it that make it really different than a one time traumatic event like a car accident or natural disaster. It's ongoing. You never know if it's going to stop, you're living with the person who hurt you where like in a war zone or car accident, you get away from the scene. In betrayal trauma, you're living with the possibility all the time that somebody could hurt you. And so, it's critical for that person who's been cheated on and been betrayed, for them to get help for themselves, and not just hope that stopping the affair is going to fix everything.

Dave Schramm  22:26

Yeah. Now coming from a parent perspective. I have a married daughter now. He's great by the way, but I just wonder, I can't help but think: outsiders and how reactive they may be and may not understand all the dynamics and what's happening. A parent could be like "Oh, you're leaving, you're coming here, you're not going to talk to them". That kind of stuff. What do you recommend to those on the outside who don't see the whole picture? What's their role in this? What do you recommend?

Geoff Steurer  22:56

Yeah, it's interesting. I think Jennifer Freed is her name, she's one of the early sort of pioneers in betrayal trauma. She talked about how, when somebody opens up about, in her research it was being sexually abused or sexually harassed, but I think it goes the same for people that open up about being cheated on or having somebody hurt them or whatever. What she found in her research is that more people experienced damage from a poor response from a loved one or a boss or a family member. It's worse to have a poor response than it is to not even bring it up at all, isn't that crazy? And so it's critical for those who are trying to help for them to know how to respond. And so I love your question. So how do you respond to somebody who says "I think my husband's cheating or I think my wife's doing this"? You take them seriously. You listen, you slow it down, like what do you need? How can I be there for you? I'm not going to leave you alone in this. I care about you." You're not going to jump in and dogpile this other person, you're not going to immediately jump to conclusions, you're not going to blame them and say "Well, have you been this or that?" or "Can you be more of this or less of that?" A lot of victim blaming. So it's critical just to slow it way down and say, "What kind of help can you get?". Knowing your scope of influence as a parent, you're not a professional, you're not going to guide them through this journey, you're not their spouse and so you don't know all the details of their dynamic. Your scope is to just be present and I think it was Dorothy Beckbar that called that the ministry of presence. Your job is to just not leave them alone in this, even if they have to fly back home or drive back home with this person. They know that they're not alone and they've got a person who sees and cares about their experience. You can point them to resources, you can offer to help pay for counseling, you can do everything you can to make it easy for them to heal. But ultimately, they have to know that, that this is something they're going to have to self determine, they're going to have to make choices. And that's part of being an adult and taking responsibility for yourself in your relationships. But knowing you're not alone in it is huge.

Liz Hale  25:18

Yeah, what was that term again? Something ministering, what was that called?

Geoff Steurer  25:22

The ministry of presence.

Liz Hale  25:24

Ah, gosh, that's beautiful, isn't it? Yeah. The ministry of presence.

Geoff Steurer  25:30

Yeah, Dorothy Beckbar used that. She did a lot of work on grief and loss and bereavement, death, and dying. And I heard that years ago when I saw her present at a conference and she used that phrase, and I thought that really matches with people that have been cheated on. It's like a death, t feels in some ways worse than a death. Because it's like, the death of what they thought is gone, but they're still with that same person. And how do you reconcile those? I can't just, sort of, kind of end the tape and just be like "Well, this was our life. We did the best. They're a good person". It's like, no, it's still active and ongoing. Yet, I feel like something's totally died. It's terrible.

Liz Hale  26:09

So many clients say death would have been easier.

Geoff Steurer  26:13

Yeah!

Liz Hale  26:14

People bring you casseroles. I mean, you can talk about that. There's such shame and secrecy around this type of betrayal. Ah, it's just painful. And it's so hopeful too, Geoff, you and I know. Many couples, when they get that professional intervention, recover beautifully on the other end and have marriage 2.0 often.

Geoff Steurer  26:34

Yeah, I think it's 70-80% of couples do make it through affairs. I mean, it's pretty high. And so the odds of you getting through this are so much better getting help and education and working together. Everybody says, "man, if you ever cheat on me, I'm done. I'm out of here". You know it's like Mike Tyson says, you know, everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face. Right? But that's just it, you don't know what you're going to do. And same with family members. They say, "Oh, you shouldn't put up with this". So don't project your stuff onto them. Don't assume that what's best for you is best for them. Just stay with them.

Liz Hale  27:14

It's so easy to say isn't it? Because it's personal. Like you were saying, Dave. You know, with your a father and it's your adult daughter, it's so personal, and really hard to separate yourself from that. And to not take those stances like, "you don't deserve this". Yeah, I hear that all the time. First Responders, boy, we really do have a huge responsibility I think. You mentioned Shirley Glass' book. Are there other books you also like that you recommend to your clients? May I ask?

Geoff Steurer  27:39

Yeah, the go-to to book for affair recovery is called Getting Past the Affair. And it was written by a team of four researchers and therapists that I think is great. And it goes through a three phase model for repairing - discovery, consolidation, and then the emerging marriage type thing. Yeah, a three phase process. And so I like their work a lot. I think it's pretty solid. And I do love Shirley Glass, I think her work is, I mean she dedicated her whole career to something that was pretty taboo and that made it difficult I think for people to talk about and she did a great job talking about it so those are two resources I love and recommend often.

Liz Hale  28:21

I also really like Healing from Infidelity by Michelle Weiner Davis. The chapters there for the betrayed and the betrayer, I love that as well. Thank you for reminding me about Getting Past the Affair. I know I have that, I need to dust that off and get that down. So thank you Geoff, so many good resources to keep in mind and you have such a message of hope, so thank you for that. Let's go now to the third A please, addiction. Can marriages survive when there's an addiction, even like a hidden addiction?

Geoff Steurer  28:54

I love that you put the hidden there! They can thrive addictions, but they can't survive hidden addictions. So yeah, the coming out of hiding and being open about it - it's interesting, it's like the old saying: a slap with the truth is better than a kiss with the lie or it's not the crime, it's the cover up. So it's interesting because so many partners I've worked with over the years who have been betrayed by their spouses addiction to pornography or sex or gambling or whatever. They're definitely horrified by a lot of the behaviors, the stuff that happens that's so damaging. But what's really wounding the relationship is the manipulation, the secrecy, and the hiding because it really steals another person's reality. Like we we all understand to some degree that people are gonna make mistakes or that we're gonna get addicted to things or struggle. We're all humans. We all know our own limits. But the part that feels so cruel in addiction work is the ongoing lying and manipulation. Like, "Why are you stealing my own reality from me every single day 100% of the time?" That's hard to tolerate.

Liz Hale  30:07

And their word becomes no good, right? You can't trust anything that comes from your partner's mouth if they're not willing to come impeccably clean. That would be the first goal, wouldn't it? To come clean. If there's any chance of survival. Would you agree? Cleaning your side of the street? Easier said than done I realize, because there's such shame attached?

Geoff Steurer  30:27

I know, I know. Yes, a full disclosure is a critical piece of healing from addictions because it brings both people into alignment, it brings them both into a state of oneness before they can truly be one, or at least their realities are one. And that's a precursor to building unity and connection and intimacy down the road, which is at least "we both know what we're dealing with". And then the betrayed partner is able to make choices about their future based on good information instead of being manipulated and disdained with the other person. Because the truth is that if I've got a secret life and my wife is very nice to me and loving me and we're making love and everything just seems to be going really well, but I've got this whole secret life, I've essentially engineered the condition so that she responds to be a certain way. And I'm controlling her, right? Because if she knew the truth, we would be on a very different path of healing, of working through stuff, of dealing with strong emotions, etc. And so manipulating somebody else's reality is just so damaging and it takes a long time to recover from. So if you're listening to this, and you're sitting on secrets or secret behavior like addictions and things like that and your partner doesn't know, you still have a chance today to do the one thing that's going to make the biggest difference in your healing, which is for you to come forward with it, instead of getting caught or discovered. Because it's way harder to overcome that: getting caught and discovered, than your partner knowing at the core, this person wanted it, this person wanted to heal.

Liz Hale  32:05

Yeah, that's great.

Dave Schramm  32:06

Geoff, can you tell me the flip side of that? Because I think it's super important as well. So someone says, "Hey honey, I need to talk to you about something". Now tell us about how the other person and their response can totally shape the future, the dynamics?

Geoff Steurer  32:21

So you mean the person who's receiving a disclosure? Okay. Yeah that's asking a lot, because it's traumatic to not only learn what they've been doing, but that in many cases, you've been lied to. The first thing is that if you're the person who's on the receiving end of this, you're hearing a disclosure, it's okay for you to have an authentic response. You don't have to like just sit there and hold all the conditions together. Now, of course, I don't recommend people get violent or get so disregulate that they do things they regret. But also, because it's traumatic, you're going to be numb, you're going to be anxious, you're gonna have a hard time sleeping, eating, it's going to affect you. So it's going to be critical for you to recognize that if somebody comes forward with you, especially someone who struggles within a compulsive or addictive behavior, and they're going to open up about it, that's a tremendous act of courage on their part. It's a tremendously difficult thing to do, if they've come forward on their own. So either in that moment, or later, I think it's very helpful if you're thinking you want this relationship still, or even if you don't, I think it's just human decency just to be able to come back and say, at some point when you feel you can, thank you for bringing that to me. Thank you for telling me the truth. Now, in that space, though, recognize you're going to need support, you're going to need to be able to get your emotional balance somehow. It's a very difficult thing. But the last thing I'll say about this is that it's also important to recognize that every case is different. But more often than not, what they've disclosed is only part of the story. They generally are holding back some because they feel ashamed, they're kind of testing the waters or just getting it off their chest. But oftentimes they've lied to themselves that there's been so much denial, there's so much avoidance over the years, that they have a bigger story that needs to be told for their own healing. And obviously for the healing of the relationship. So recognize that's not usually going to be everything right out the gate.

Dave Schramm  34:29

Yeah. Powerful stuff. I want to make sure that we get to some of the resources you have, some amazing boot camps and some online groups and courses, your podcast. Where can people go for more information about what you do?

Geoff Steurer  34:46

Yeah, so everything's on my website. My name is impossible to spell so I just set up "fromcrisistoconnection.com" is my website and you can find my podcast on there that I do with my wife, Jody. And we also have a course called the Trust Building Bootcamp, which is a 12 week self- guided online course for individuals who have broken trust. It's for the person who broke the trust to learn how to become a safe person and create conditions where trust can be restored. And then my wife and I also have a couple's community called Connection Plus, that's a membership community for couples that just want a place to do long- term healing couples work with monthly themes and challenges and trainings on just long-term recovery things for healing from the impact of betrayal.

Liz Hale  35:36

Wow, you're making a big difference in this world. Geoff, you and your wife both, we commend you. We love to ask each of our guests this one question, Geoff. What is the key, do you think, to a stronger marriage connection?

Geoff Steurer  35:51

I love that question. So for me it's two keys based off of John Gottman and Sue Johnson's work and I've seen in my own marriage as well. It's really learning to see the other person as someone that's different than you and really honoring and cherishing them as an individual. There's so much compassion in that, there's so much awareness that can come from that, and it's just such a joy to be in partnership with somebody who you recognize is a unique individual who you can just almost like endlessly learn about. I just think that is such a challenging and incredibly beautiful thing, a rich thing to do over time. And then the Sue Johnson piece of that is to recognize that as you're doing that, as you're getting to know this person, that their deepest need is the same as yours. I don't buy into that "men are from Mars and women are from Venus" in terms of our core need. Our deepest core need is for someone to be there for us. And so when you're feeling lonely or afraid, it's likely your partner's feeling the same way. And there's something about knowing that you're both are on the exact same journey of just learning how to reach out and stay close to each other and reliably find your way back to each other. That to me is when I understand that and I'm constantly reaching and looking and recognizing that my partner is experiencing the exact same thing I am most of the time. It makes the marriage work a lot easier.

Liz Hale  37:24

That is beautiful. So many times in private practice I'm saying to one partner or another "that's what he/she said" or "that's that's how he/she felt" or "do you realize you two feel the exact same way maybe for the right reasons? But now you get it, you understand where the other ones coming from?"

Dave Schramm  37:40

Love it. Geoff, as we wrap up, another thing we'd like to end with here on the stronger marriage connection is to ask each of our guests if they have a takeaway of the day. If you have only one message that you want listeners to remember, just one thing from what we've talked about, what would that be?

Geoff Steurer  38:00

Yeah, so for this topic in particular, the theme for me is around truth. It's around speaking the truth, naming the truth, recognizing that your marriage can handle the truth. So if it's the truth about a pattern that is unhealthy or that's abusive, saying I'm not okay with that or speaking the truth about an addiction or opening up about a secret life. Marriages cannot handle ongoing lies. And secrecy is division, it's walls, it creates all kinds of struggles. So the takeaway is, don't be afraid of the truth, your marriage can handle it. And if you're gonna have a thriving marriage, it will be based on a foundation of total transparency and truth and honesty. And you will both feel so much more relaxed when that's going on.

Dave Schramm  38:48

That's wonderful, man. It's great takeaways. I love that. Liz, what about you?

Liz Hale  38:52

I think the takeaway is hope. There is such hope. I believe in miracles. Sometimes it feels like a miracle to get through something at that level of betrayal. It's just excruciating for many people. But I believe in marriage 2.0. I believe in that vision of looking at the other side, keeping your eye on that prize of getting through it whole and happy and healed.

Geoff Steurer  39:14

I love that. It's funny you say that, Liz. I often joke with a lot of my couples like, "Oh, I'm on marriage 8.0. Are you kidding me? We got a few upgrades over the years."

Liz Hale  39:26

That is great, Geoff. Your candor and honesty is so refreshing. Thank you for that. Dave, what's your takeaway, my friend?

Dave Schramm  39:33

Yeah my takeaway from this is to reach out. Reach out for help because there is help. I love that message of hope but to find someone that you honor, that you trust, and maybe it's not your mom to begin with, because maybe she's a nuclear reactor who'll just jump on and rip you away. But maybe it's a friend or maybe it's a religious leader or someone that you can trust to really open up and talk to someone about any of these A's that we've talked about orother struggles in relationship. There really is hope. And people do know and can understand how you feel as you're going through this and each situation and dynamic is going to be different. So don't compare yourself to anyone else who's going through any of this because each of these are different. So, Geoff, any last words from you before we wrap up?

Geoff Steurer  40:22

No. I mean, there's so much we could say about this. It's hard to cover it all. But recognize that there's lots of people that struggle with these things, you're not going to shock or overwhelm somebody, especially a therapist. Go get help for this. Don't try and just do this part alone, these big things that we're talking about, these A's. This is stuff that is not a do it yourselfer kind of thing and it's critical to get help and recognize that you're not alone in it. There's lots of research, lots of education, there's lots of ways we know how to help people heal from these and I love your positivity around this Liz. The hope around this. You don't have to live like this forever. It's totally not something that you have to put up with.

Liz Hale  41:06

So true.

Dave Schramm  41:07

Man. Well, thanks again Geoff Steurer, we sure appreciate you joining us here on the stronger marriage connection. And my friends that does it for us. So thank you for tuning in. And we hope that you'll do those little things to keep that marriage connection strong

Liz Hale  41:21

Bye now.

Dave Schramm  41:26

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a few minutes to subscribe to our podcasts and the Utah marriage commission YouTube channel where you can watch this and every episode of the show. When you hit the like button and leave a comment. Your feedback helps us improve the show. And don't forget to share this episode with a friend. You can also follow connect with us on Instagram, at stronger marriage life and on Facebook at stronger marriage. Be sure to share with us what topics you want us to explore or what you loved about today's episode. If you want even more resources to improve your relationship connection, visit our website at strongermarriage.org where you'll find free workshops, webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of stronger marriage connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah marriage commission at Utah State University. Finally, a big thanks to our producers Rex Polanis, Kiersten Wilson and the team at Utah State University and you our audience, you make this show possible