014: Navigating the Holidays After Betrayal

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Dave Schramm 

On today's episode, Liz sits down with Dr. Jill Manning and they talk about an important but sensitive topics related to sexual betrayal in the holidays. Dr. Manning shares some valuable tips for those who have experienced betrayal trauma, and offer some help and hope for experiencing post traumatic growth. We recognize this topic as sensitive for many and can be triggering for some. Dr. Jill Manning is a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in working with individuals who have been sexually betrayed through infidelity or compulsive sexual behavior. For over two decades Her work has been featured in numerous peer reviewed research journals, television programs, documentaries, radio shows, podcasts, and magazine articles, including The Oprah Magazine. She's the author of "What's the big deal about pornography" a guide for the internet generation. A native of Calgary, Alberta, Canada. She currently lives in Colorado with her husband and two daughters. To increase access to betrayal trauma specific resources, Dr. Manning produces digital downloads that allow therapists, coaches and individuals all over the world. To integrate high quality and affordable digital resources into their professional work with betrayed clients or their own self-care efforts. Check out the links in our show notes. We hope you enjoy the show.

Liz Hale  01:27

Welcome to stronger marriage connection, the doctors are in. I'm psychologist Liz Hale. Sadly, my cohost is not able to be here today. But he'll join us next time, in the house also is Dr. Jill Manning. I'm really excited to introduce you to her today. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in the treatment of betrayal, trauma, you know, during the best of times, the holidays can be challenging for a range of reasons, but they are especially so in the aftermath of betrayal. When someone we love violates our trust, our whole world comes crashing down around us. And everything we thought was true, is now thrown into question. So, then it becomes not the most wonderful time of the year. Something I saw on Dr. Jill Manning's website, caught my eye, just imagine this is yours, maybe someone you love, perhaps you know, you have just discovered your partner's betrayal and you are devastated. You feel like you've been sucker punched in the gut and you can’t even catch your breath. Whether you've been married one month, one year, 10 years or 40 years, it is absolutely devastating because the illusion of what you had is changed forever. Maybe you saw his or her phone, come up with some texts that were totally inappropriate. Maybe you had something come up on the computer that absolutely floored you. Maybe somebody, maybe somebody called you and told you that your partner was acting out. And you're likely going through a lot of emotional reaction as a result of finding out that your partner has cheated. Maybe it's panic attacks, generalized anxiety or intense anger, maybe your heart is racing and maybe trembling, not able to sleep or eat. When this kind of information is discovered, your whole central nervous system goes into overload, overload, which then sends all sorts of chemicals to the brain, then you go into self-protect mode, am I going to fight flight freeze fix, you want to show the world you want to tell his or her family, you want to let everybody know that this person has betrayed you that there's a part of you, however, that doesn't want to talk about it to others, because you don't want them to hate your partner too. So, you protect them, and you want to expose them at the same time. It's normal to feel that way. And that is the dilemma of discovery. So I'm so grateful. Dr. Jill Manning, that you're here with us today. Welcome to stronger marriage connection.

Dr. Jill Manning  03:52

Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.

Liz Hale  03:55

It is our delight. Our focus today is on sexual betrayal. But you say there are a number of betrayal as well as losses overall. Right? What are the some of the other types of betrayal and losses you've seen in your years as a therapist?

Dr. Jill Manning  04:08

Well, first I'm so grateful and impressed Liz that you ask about betrayal and losses in the same question because loss is a part of the betrayal experience. It just is. It's baked into the experience, if you will, and whether it is a loss of trust, respect, safety, reality as we once knew it, self-esteem or even hope, loss is a part of this. And because there's loss, grief is also part of the healing process and it's important to mention that too. Grief work is a is a component of that healing. Outside of sexual betrayal, which is what I see the most there are three types of betrayal that I commonly encounter, that often are criss cross these betrayal stories in some way. The first is abuse or neglect by a parent toward a child. Second is financial betrayal that can look like deceitfulness with spending or investments being cut out of a will unexpectedly and finding out after someone has passed, or embezzlement in a family business. The third that I've encountered and we actually all hear about this quite often in the news, but this term is not used frequently in the news, and that is institutional betrayal. That is when there is wrongdoing perpetrated by an institution. And there's either a failure to prevent that wrongdoing from happening again, or failure to respond in a supportive, effective way when that wrongdoing comes to light. And we see this sadly hear about this in the military or in religious organizations.

Liz Hale  05:48

Ah, goodness, oh, my goodness, this life is something isn't it? It's risky. living, living life just is risky. And you and I were talking just a little bit before about why this is so devastating when someone that especially when it's a loving relationship that you feel betrayed by why, why the devastation so much?

Dr. Jill Manning  06:07

Great question and great point to bring up because this isn't just someone's feelings getting hurt. This attacks the very core of how we are wired as humans, human beings, one of the ways that we stay safe in the world is we operate on the buddy system, essentially, in clinical world, we call that attachment and bonding, we operate that we choose a person, and inherent in any vow or marriage ceremony or covenant is an implicit agreement that we will have each other's back that we will be true and faithful and honest with one another. So, when that core basic primary attachment is the person that undercuts or betrays our trust, it does not just cause pain, it throws into question the whole way that we feel safe in the world. And it actually cuts so deeply, we, it often will evoke what we call primal panic. It is a deep wound. And it takes careful intervention and, and support. I really hope that can be validating for anyone listening that may think you know, what is wrong with me? Why can't I get over this? Or why does this hurt so badly? That is why because it's, it's an assault on the very way in which we are wired to be relational and to attach and bond.

Liz Hale  07:30

I often tell my clients; pain makes us insane. Because it does, you know, you start to feel a little it's crazy making. And so that's why I'm so grateful to have you on today. And I know Dave is as well, to help us navigate, especially this time of year with the holidays, Jill, let's start with the most important step of all that you brought for us today. And just discovering that life is not what I thought it was going to be because of the sexual betrayal, what is the very first thing we should do?

Dr. Jill Manning  07:59

The first step I believe, is seek specialized support. It can be harmful and risky to try to navigate this all on her own in isolation, we know that 68% of those dealing with sexual betrayal will feel extremely isolated initially, even those that are social butterflies and highly connected and have good family support. Even they will feel a lot of isolation. So, seeking specialized support is really one of the first steps and let me speak to two key things in that search for specialized support. One, I'd want people to know that there are credentials, there's training available for mental health providers that have credentials, specific to betrayal, trauma healing, a lot of people don't know that. They just think any psychologist or enter any mental health provider is is appropriate. And while there's many good providers out there, I want to say that having specialized training and support with this really makes a world of difference. And it can alleviate or reduce rather the risk of secondary trauma from treatment induced trauma that which occurs when we're working with someone who may be well meaning maybe trying their, his or her best, but does not have the training and the nuance necessary to understand this at the level that's needed. And so, you know, just like if we had a serious heart condition, we'd want to be seen by a cardiologist rather than a generalist so that we have optimal care but also an optimal outcome. It makes a difference. So, let me for anyone wondering, well, what credential Do I look for? Let me speak to that. There are two that I highly recommend. The first is a certified clinical partner specialist that has a credential through the app SATs organization. Their website is apsats.org and that stands for Association for partners of sex addicts and trauma specialists. The second is a certified partner trauma therapist and that's a credential through ITAP the International Institute of trauma In Addiction Professionals, their website is iitap.com. When you go to those websites, they both have directories where you can put in your zip code, city or state. And it will give you a listing of the betrayal trauma specialists in your area. Now, here's a tip Liz that I hope can help those that live in remote areas. Or maybe they've gone on to the website, and there's no one in their town, there is a growing number of betrayal trauma coaches, who are mental health providers, but they get coaching designation so that they're not limited by state lines, they can work across state lines and work remotely with people. So if you're really stuck and not finding someone, look for a betrayal trauma coach, and the app set site has a listing of those as well. And lastly, I think just finding someone you feel comfortable talking with and feel safe with feels like they get you. And that means you may have to shop around a little bit, call two or three providers on a list or on a directory and just see who feels like a best fit for you.

Liz Hale  10:59

I think that's such good advice. I will admit that I did not know about these specialized therapists until the last couple of years really Jill and I am sorry for that. A lot of my practice is recovering from infidelity. And I can see where that PTSD and oh, it's just such a painful experience. And you do feel like you're just out of your mind a little bit. And it is not, you know, staying is not for the faint of heart. That is for sure. It impresses me that when couples are able to and some couples choose not to, when they get on the other side of that just the, you know the great joy that can come from recovery. I'm so hopeful. And I know you are as well. But getting the right support is key. I love that. And then next you say it's important that you get to feel all your feelings, right? That's the time to just really recognize them and, and give them a place to be not stuff them down.

Dr. Jill Manning  11:55

Exactly. And anger, shame, sadness, fear, panic, even feeling utterly overwhelmed. All of that is common, I really want to validate and normalize that for anyone listening thinking, Am I losing my mind what's wrong with me, there's nothing wrong with you. This is normal. And this speaks to what happens when humans that have attachments that are torpedoed in this way. These are normal responses. And what I noticed really can throw people for a loop emotionally Liz during the holidays, especially is that they will have unexpected painful responses to things that previously may have brought them a lot of joy. For example, receiving holiday photo cards in the mail of happy smiling families that they love, or receiving a gift from the person that betrayed you, boy, does that ever open a landmine. And so those unexpected emotions, I think can really throw people and what I'd want all of us to remember is that all emotions are useful. All emotions play a role in our wellbeing there's no such thing as good or bad, invaluable or valuable emotions, they all play a role. There’re emotions that can be less or more comfortable. But they all are a part of the human experience. And so, when we get stuck on an expectation that we can or should only feel one way, relative to a holiday boy, we should set ourselves up for disappointment and even a sense of failure, which then becomes its own source of pain, right. So, the more we can graciously permit ourselves to feel our feelings, all of them. And to know that there is room for all of that in our holiday observance. There really is. And I know we'll speak more about that in a little bit.

Liz Hale  13:38

That's beautiful. Again, I can see the need for betrayal trauma specialist, you know, who can really validate that and normalize that. No, you're not going crazy. Yeah, it's absolutely normal, actually, to fill this array of feelings. And it's, I suppose, a gift because it is really all about going not just going through them, but coming through the other side as well.

Dr. Jill Manning  14:03

Yes. And to normalize that we're going through a biological response. This is a biological response to something that's abnormal.

Liz Hale  14:12

Hmm. So nervous system, the amygdala, right? They play that key role. The amygdala is there to protect us right? So suddenly, the alarms going off like you are not safe. You should run fight. I suppose that's a fight flight freeze fix. Do some people actually go into fix mode, Jill and stop feeling? Do you see that?

Dr. Jill Manning  14:32

I do. I do. And I'm glad there's more attention to that aspect of trauma responses. The people that just feel like they have to control or try to get their arms around all of this as soon as possible. It's a normal response it's a way we try to get safety and a sense of having the room stop spinning, and it will also wear us out. If we don't get a handle on that.

Liz Hale  14:57

That quick fix is probably something to be weary of right? At least my experience, in therapy, it comes up to bite us. If we don't really just slow down and take the time it takes to go through something like this. Recovery is possible, it just takes time, there's no substitute. Another tip you have for us this holiday season when we have faced betrayal is to simplify and do just that slow down. Tell us more Jill.

Dr. Jill Manning  15:25

Well, betrayal trauma affects our whole system, our body, our mind, our spirit. And so, it affects our whole life as a result. And it's normal to have decreased energy, decreased enthusiasm, or interest or even ability to celebrate holidays like we did in the past. And that's ok, again, that's a normal response. It's not going to last forever. I think that's important too. These are not permanent responses. It's not always going to feel this way. And so, it's okay to give ourselves permission to modify what we take on to reduce the number of commitments or gatherings tasks we take on. And just really, overall simplify, I think it's an opportunity too, for us to connect to the essence of a holiday, and maybe cut through some of the fixings that as enjoyable and fun as those can be. They can really tap us out when we're dealing with something painful. So, what I write well, and what I do is I'll all encourage people, this is an exercise that I'll do and I'll invite listeners to consider this if this feels right for them. I'll invite people to think of one holiday tradition or practice that they engage in. That brings them a lot of meaning and helps them feel connected to that holiday. But then I'll invite them to choose two holiday traditions that they are willing to pause or let go of temporarily while they're going through so much and healing. Last week, I want to give two brief examples of this in action. Last week, I met someone who was just egregiously betrayed by her husband. And for 27 years, each Christmas holiday, she writes out a lengthy, beautiful letter and sends it to family and friends. And as we talked about, what is she going to let go of this year, she realized there was more benefit for her to pause the letter. Maybe she'll resume it next year. But this year, she's going to pause that and instead buy a beautiful journal for herself and spend time journaling, trying to figure out and get clear on what's going on in her life right now, I thought that was beautiful. And so attuned. Another woman I met has had for the last 10 years a tradition of baking a particular European cookie exactly one week before Christmas every year with her adult daughter. Well, this last year, that adult daughter lied to her in a very significant and deep way. And so as she and I worked through, what are you going to pause this year, she said, Jill, I'll never forget, she said, Jill, this year, a batch of honesty is what we will be baking. And she said I need to set a boundary with this adult daughter, and we will not be resuming I can no longer I won't pretend that all as well, while we're baking these cookies, we need to set a boundary and have a real heart to heart before we can resume that. I thought that's what can really help people move forward. There's pain in that there's change in that. But if we can let our healing and those emotions be a part of honoring and observing a holiday, what will really move things forward.

Dave Schramm  18:39

We'll be right back after this brief message.

Dave Schramm  18:51

And we're back. Let's dive right in.

Liz Hale  18:54

And I imagine you feel similarly Jill, that there is no greater honor than when someone trusts you in a session with that deep level of honesty of like, this is what's happened in my life. This is what's happened to me. I have such respect and reverence for those clients who trust me. There is no greater honor. You feel similarly, I'm sure. It's sacred ground. It is sacred ground I see that all the time. There is no place professionally I'd rather be than in that private practice. Working with a couple of trying to work through really difficult things. I value them so very much. Oh, this is great information. So, what about honoring our self-care when dealing with more stress than usual one’s custom-made self-care needs are more of a necessity than ever before? And I really, I got to say you have such a great website. Dr. Jill Manning, it's Dr. Jillmanning.com I believe right? I've been there many times. And I love this digital download. It's my favorite, whether you're going through betrayal or not, 125 self-care ideas for individuals healing, especially from betrayal, trauma, it's good for anybody, my friend, I'm really trying to hone in on self-care myself, it's not my forte, I don't do a very good job at it as a as a therapist, as a woman. It's not easy to do. But that's one of my favorite downloads, you have many that I could send our dear listeners to. But where do we start with self-care, especially when we're just feeling devastated?

Dr. Jill Manning  20:38

Sure, we can start small, I want to put that out there, first and foremost, but I think customizing our self-care, as you pointed out, Liz, what we've done in the past, or what's really worked for us may not be working when we're in the throes of betrayal. And there's a reason why, because our needs our nervous system, our body, or our mind, our spirit has different needs, when we are dealing with something like this. So, some tips for how we customize this, I encourage people to do what I call body mapping, it's free to do, easy to do and you head to toe, visualize your body, head to toe literally, and go through what all the signs of stress and trauma are. How is stress manifesting itself in your body, and think through that head to toe. And so, someone may come up with a list of well, my jaw clenches, I have tightness in my shoulders and chest, my stomach feels queasy, more than it used to. And I have trouble sleeping, let's say as we go through that. So, then we would go through that list and item by item, identify and brainstorm a self-care strategy that would attend to that sign of stress. So for the list I just mentioned, that may mean as we go through this self-care aspect of the body mapping, we match jaw clenching, with gentle stretches and opening of the jaw, very intentional, maybe 10 or 12 times throughout the day, you're in there, we may lay back on a yoga ball, opening the chest and torso and just hanging there maybe putting some quiet music on and just hanging out over the yoga ball for five or 10 minutes. We may sip a warm ginger tea with honey, or use a weighted blanket and bilateral music as we drift asleep. But the point is to customize it, to not just think, oh, I'm going to go to the gym or get a manicure. Those are good things. There's nothing wrong with those things at all. But if those are not customized to what our nervous system needs in that moment, and we know what it needs based on the signs it's giving us. So that's where I see self-care has really become effective and move the needle.

Liz Hale  22:51

That's brilliant. Actually, what I'm just so curious friend to friend, what are some of the things you do right now that are self-caring for you, with your busy world, your family and your practice? What are some ideas that I need?

Dr. Jill Manning  23:06

I have come to become very good friends with my calm app. It's a very high-quality guided meditation app. I love that. I use it in my work in my groups. And if I can get three or four guided meditations in, in the evening throughout the week, it makes such a difference. I also sleep with a weighted blanket. I walk every morning rain or sunshine, rain or shine, cold or hot. I'm out walking every morning. It just clears my head and gets me moving and helps me prep for my day. So those are some of my favorites.

Liz Hale  23:43

Oh, I love that. We both do weighted blanket. I love it. I love calm all still. And I am hit and miss with walking. I don't know what it is about me. I used to be so diligent. So, you've inspired me, my friend. You've inspired me. Let's talk about deepening the spiritual meaning I love a conversation you all had earlier. If we go into the real meaning of Christmas, there's a dark side to the underbelly. Jill have never thought about that before. There is a story of refugees, loss, rejection, homelessness and even sadness.

Dr. Jill Manning  24:17

And plotted murder. Let's not forget plotted murder.

Liz Hale  24:21

When we connect with a holiday in a brand-new way, you suggest we're going to find greater meaning in spite of what we're going through with betrayal.

Dr. Jill Manning  24:31


Dr. Jill Manning  24:32

I was fortunate Liz, to grow up in various corners of the world. And regardless of where I lived, or what the dominant religion was, where I was living at the time, every religious or secular holiday. Every one that I've encountered has a multi-dimensional quality to it if we will look for it. And yet what we do is we often treat holidays in a one-dimensional way, emotionally and energetically all marry and all bright. But what if you're going through something painful and things are not all merry and all bright. I believe those are opportunities for us to use that experience to connect with a different dimension and angle of that holiday. And I've seen this many, many times. And I've needed at times, Liz to do this myself. Most holidays commemorate some form of human suffering, a tragedy, something, something going on that was intercepted with a miracle, a triumph over tragedy or a victory over an enemy. And when I hear someone bemoan that such and such a holiday will be ruined, quote, because of betrayal first, can't we all validate that we understand where that person is coming from. And so, we validate that this is painful. And then we can invite them to use that pain to connect with that holiday in a new way, maybe a way they've never considered or looked at or known before. And when we do that, I think it enriches our spiritual understanding and depth of the true meaning of a holiday and the complexity of a holiday. I love a quote, Indian actor Provice stated he said a holiday is an opportunity to journey within. And I believe if we'll use our painful moments, the ones that seem so incongruent with Christmas cheer, or Hanukkah lights or New Years, that if we can journey and connect with that, that it well then allow us to journey out and, and experience that differently.

Liz Hale  26:35

You give us such hope. And it's such a good point that this is just one holiday, right? Is a moment in time, it will soon be here and they'll soon be gone, there will be other holidays to come. We may do things differently ahead. But for just today, just this year, what can we do differently? And where can we find that deeper spiritual meaning? It's really valuable. What about maintaining those supportive connections? You know, I talked about I'm a hit and miss with with walking these days. Holidays are not the time to take a break in one's healing efforts. I know, it's easy to let your guard down whether you're suffering or not, and stop doing what's most personally supportive, it seems, is that right?

Dr. Jill Manning  27:13

Yes, most major holidays coincide with time away from work or school, they typically get us out of our regular routines, which is, let's face it, part of what can make a holiday enjoyable. And when we are healing and reeling from something deeply painful, there is an inherent risk in that is that if we get out of routine with the things that are grounding and supporting and helping us stabilize, we're at risk for really getting wobbly. So, I recommend so passionately that people look for ways to integrate their healing work and supports into the holiday plans that may look like arranging to attend a 12-step meeting, remotely, even on the day of a holiday, they are available. Scheduling a time to check in with a sponsor, book, a therapy session that may be out of sync with our regular appointment times. Letting family know that we'll be taking a walk or spending some time alone to journal or to nap. All of those things are acceptable. And some of it depends on communicating our needs to family and friends. And I think one of the things that holds us back is we go into Image management because there's just so much going on. People are tapped out. But there's also, who knows and who doesn't know. So, I want to acknowledge the complexity of sometimes it's not as easy as oh, just letting everyone know, hey, I'm going through a hard time. What? What's going on? If the holidays coinciding with that still being a secret, and we're doing what we call shielding? We're not sure yet who we can open up to. So, it adds complexity. But whatever we need to do to hold on to the supports and self-care practices that are keeping us in a good place. I really urge people to do those.

Liz Hale  29:03

I love that too. Do you have thoughts going back to shielding? Who should we tell? And who should we not tell? Do you have some standard advice that you or suggestions, information you give your clients?

Dr. Jill Manning  29:19

It's so hard because sometimes the people we think will be most open and understanding aren't. And my observation with many that I've worked with over the years, sometimes it's trial and error. I don't know a better way around that, you know, we can kind of test the waters and see, I think that's where professional sports can sometimes be a first line of defense to get our sea legs under us and kind of get some support and strength before we start identifying who we feel we can trust or let history be a guide to who in the past if we allowed to share and has been really supportive and kept confidences. So, there I wish there was a you know one way to determine or look This test we could use, sadly, there's not. But I do know when people, we need support staying isolated as a risk factor. So, whatever it takes to slowly determine the network of people that are safe, it's wise to do that.

Liz Hale  30:16

What suggestion Jill do you have for those of us where family members may disclose that? Look, this is just what the bomb blew up in our marriage, and I need your support, and I needed your listening ear. What is your advice for the rest of us? Who are trying to be supportive and loving?

Dr. Jill Manning  30:34

Sure, that was actually one of the questions I posed in my doctoral research was, what's most helpful what’s unhelpful? I could talk for hours on this, and I will not here today. But some of the key things to just do our very best to reserve judgment, to recognize it as difficulties or risk this person's taken to open up to us, and to reserve judgment to not immediately be forming a case for why that person should leave a relationship or stay in a relationship to be just an open sounding board, which I know, as a mother, myself, as a close friend, to women who've gone through this, it is hard, it's hard to do that, to be you know, gray rock, and I'm going to be neutral, it's hard to be neutral when at someone we love. But I think even if we can express our intention, I want to support whatever is right for you. It's not my place to determine whether you leave or stay or what this path looks like. Is really, really, I think, one of the best things we can do and also to hold confidences when that boy, that's one of the most important things to be a safe person, that this will go no further, unless you've given me specific instructions otherwise,

Liz Hale  31:51

Be a gray rock. Is that what you said? I like that very much. So many of my clients will report that family members, loved ones, good friends are saying I think you should leave. Right? It's usually the first line of defense. Why? Because they can't hardly bear to see their loved one suffer. It's just so painful. It's almost like please leave so I can feel better. And I think we have to really watch that. So, I so appreciate your wisdom. We're going to put your website and the connection of being able to find a certified trauma therapist on our stronger marriage connection site as well. Jill, anything in closing you'd like to say or a takeaway that you have for today, my friend?

Dr. Jill Manning  32:31

Sure. As I was thinking about this, Liz, you know, I started this work 25 years ago.

Liz Hale  32:37

I know you have. I was there. I've known you 20. I've known you 20 Anyway.

Dr. Jill Manning  32:44

And you know, when I think back, what stands out is at that time, there was virtually no resources, next to no research available. And even the term betrayal or certainly betrayal, trauma was not in common space, by any stretch. And so just the fact that we're having this conversation today is what stands out to me. And it gives me so much hope. And I'm so thankful to you and your work and your willingness to feature this topic because I know there will be listeners out there who may be feeling isolated, don't know where to start, or suffering in silence and I really do want people to know there's hope and help available.

Liz Hale  33:24

We are a friend here for them on stronger marriage connection, especially with your good help. Dr. Jill Manning, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you again, please tune into your friends and family in our listening audience. And you can find Jill's resources and being able to get her digital downloads are so much good information for free. Other things are a nominal charge and it really is so incredibly supportive. Take good care now and remember that small things often create a stronger marriage connection. Bye bye.

Dave Schramm  33:57

Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a few minutes to subscribe to our podcasts and the Utah marriage commission YouTube channel where you can watch this and every episode of the show. When you hit the like button and leave a comment Your feedback helps us improve the show. And don't forget to share this episode with friends. You can also follow and connect with us on Instagram, at stronger marriage life and on Facebook at stronger marriage. Be sure to share with us what topics you want us to explore or what you loved about today's episode. If you want even more resources to improve your relationship connection, visit our website at stronger marriage.org where you'll find free workshops, webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of stronger marriage connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah marriage commission at Utah State University. Finally, a big thanks to our producers Rex Polanis, Kierston Wilson and the team at Utah State University and you our audience. You make this show possible