013: Dr. Cameron Staley-Porn Addiction
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Dave Schramm 00:04
On today's episode, we dive into a deep discussion with Dr. Cameron Staley about unwanted pornography viewing and how it can affect couples relationship connection. We recognize this topic as sensitive for many and can be triggering for some. We also recognize that professionals and scholars have different perspectives when it comes to pornography and even using the term addiction. Our interview with Dr. Staley is obviously one perspective, and you may find it helpful. Dr. Staley is a clinical psychologist who is passionate about helping individuals improve their mental and sexual health. In his TEDx talk, changing the narrative around the addiction story, Cameron shares details from his research and counseling experience regarding helpful ways to talk about sexuality, and how to effectively reduce unwanted pornography viewing through Acceptance and Commitment Therapy or AC T. To make these principles more accessible to those who are struggling with pornography. He developed the life after pornography online program and the life after pornography coach app. Cameron also provides online counseling services and coaching services. For individuals seeking additional support and applying the mental and sexual health principles found in the life after series programs. You can check out his podcast interviews, research and free trainings on his website, CameronStaleyphd.wordpress.com We hope you enjoy the show.
Dave Schramm 01:34
Hey, welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection the doctors are in. I'm your host, Dr. David Schramm, a family life professor and extension specialist at USU. Alongside my amazing co host, Dr. Liz Hale, a clinical licensed psychologist, and we are dedicating our lives to bring you the best tips and tools to help you have the marriage of your dreams. All right, Liz, you ready for this one?
Liz Hale 01:58
Oh, yeah, I've been looking forward to it. I need to get a little bit better educated on this topic. I have clients I have family members, friends. It's a painful topic. It really needs some further understanding. I'm so please, for our next guest
Dave Schramm 02:15
Yeah, so the topic pornography addiction. So it's a common term that's been used for decades to describe unwanted viewing of sexual images. But, according to Dr. Cameron Staley, a clinical psychologist at Idaho State University is a term that doesn't quite hit the mark. Welcome to the show, Dr. Staley?
Dr. Cameron Staley 02:34
Well, thank you so much for the invitation. It's great to be with you both. Looking forward to this chat.
Liz Hale 02:39
We are really honored. I think the three of us can agree that words have power, right? For instance, you do not like the term porn addict when it's to describe someone who's viewing unwanted pornography. I think it's how you say it, right? That's usually our go to term in psychology that we don't know what else to use. Other than oh, if someone's viewing pornography, they must be a porn addict. Yet that leaves a lot to be desired. Please tell us why porn addiction is really missing the mark Cameron.
Dr. Cameron Staley 03:10
I think one thing I've noticed is the term porn addiction is more focused on the symptom, rather than the underlying concerns, it's driving that action. I think about if you developed a nagging cough and went to the doctor for treatment, and they diagnosed you with a coughing addiction, and they recommend you stop coughing, is that was the concern is stopping. Coughing is unpleasant. You don't really want to do it on other people. So like don't cough? No, that wouldn't be a very helpful treatment plan. And the same is true around unwanted pornography viewing. Porn is like the cough. It's often used as a coping strategy to escape from emotions such as stress, or loneliness, sadness, or shame is the big one, or as a way to experience connection, without the fear of rejection or true vulnerability. And so when we started to use the terms, addiction does become part of our identity. I've seen it often keeps people stuck and perpetuates that unhelpful strategy, rather than contributing to change. The other big part is it also ramps up feelings of fear, and despair and hopelessness, that are going to further drive porn viewing and an effort to cope with those very emotions that were generated by that term addiction.
Dave Schramm 04:27
So it makes things worse.
Liz Hale 04:28
So pornography use for coping and the false sense of connection. Yeah,
Dr. Cameron Staley 04:34
I think so. Sometimes I think about, often people, they're struggling with something, there's feelings that are there, and there's some level of disconnection. Pornography is very similar to me it's like a candy bar, where it's like, yeah, it might taste good in that moment, it was really simple, didn't require a lot of effort. But true connection, there's some risk involved. There's some vulnerability. There might be some conflict or tension in relationships. Part of us wants that connection without some of the risk, but I think about those true sustaining connections do require effort, that sometimes we actually do have to get in the kitchen and work and put that meal together. That can be challenging because it might not turn out the way we want. But those meals are sustaining. We're pouring a candy bar that was easy. And so it gives you a little little dose of connection, but definitely not a kind of a substitute for the real thing. But that's a lot scarier for us sometimes.
Liz Hale 05:28
Versus that home cooked meal. I liked that analogy very much. You know, I'm currently working with a couple Cameron and the sexually acting out husband does not like the word porn addict. He has been dealing with pornography viewing off and on for years, he's probably in his 40s. It started as a young child, he doesn't think the label fits him because he goes through periods of time where he doesn't even look at pornography, right? It doesn't even occur to him. But then life happens, and he finds himself going right back. Now his wife, does this surprise you, Cameron, his wife prefers the term porn addict. Because it makes her feel that he's not just choosing it. So you're just choosing to hurt me that if you're not a porn addict, you're you're creating all this chaos in my life in our children's lives. On purpose.
Dr. Cameron Staley 06:12
Yeah, that's the dynamic. I think about our mind is working really hard all of the time to avoid uncomfortable emotions. So if your partner is viewing porn, it would bring up feelings of hurt and anger and fear
Dr. Cameron Staley 06:28
But yeah, all that insecurity, that betrayal. And so if we can move away from those emotions by saying, well, our partner didn't choose to view, they have an addiction. It alleviates a sense of responsibility and protects us from some of those painful emotions. The challenge is it also keeps ourselves and our partner stuck. As we don't develop the capacity to express and work through these emotions within ourselves, or in our relationships that are driving this behavior in the first place. I think the other part is, unfortunately, many women are taught that it's kind of their responsibility to manage sexuality in the relationship. And even at a very young age, there's often messages that say, you know, the way women dress that impacts men spots and urges, so you gotta watch what you're wearing. And it's like, wait a minute, like, women are not responsible for men's thoughts and actions. But that message is out there. And so it can feel like if your partner is viewing porn, somehow, it's the females partners failure, even though that's not what's going on. And so saying, oh, my husband has an addiction, could alleviate some of that sense of that unfair pressure and responsibility that we unfairly put on women.
Liz Hale 06:28
Betrayal.
Liz Hale 07:42
Oh, that's brilliant. Even in marriage, even in a healthy relationship. I think a lot of women have been misled to believe that pleasure is really the husband's right, the man, it's your job to make sure that this husband is happy and pleased. And there's not a lot of talk about a woman's pleasure that we come at this together, whether it's pleasure for both, that's the same thing, then right.
Dr. Cameron Staley 08:03
That's a key part of it, that we're kind of taught that the absence of sexual urges or desire is like virtue and healthy. And I think about that's like starvation. Like that's not help.
Liz Hale 08:15
What a shame that's just awful.
Dr. Cameron Staley 08:17
On the flip side of that were taught. If you have an appetite, oh, then that must be unhealthy too, if you're a female, but there's a balance here of eating nutritionist meals like overindulging and starving yourself. Either spectrums, unhealthy. But often men and women get different messages that women should be starving, mentioned me over nausea, but at least they get them and appetite. And either way, those messages are not helpful.
Liz Hale 08:40
So like most things, balance is the answer. That's beautifully said. So you prefer the term not porn addicts but compulsive behavior. That's what unwanted pornography viewing is, is that a better term more accurate? Do they understand that? Right?
Dr. Cameron Staley 08:54
Yeah, I would say most often viewing this as a compulsion can be a lot more helpful. And the reason why is we found in this, there is research in the last 10 years or so that typically an emotion is proceeding an urge to view pornography. So we're often viewing this as if you're viewing porn, this must be a sexual concern. But really, emotions are playing a major role. We've learned that those that do struggle with compulsive sexual behavior are typically less aware of thoughts and emotions. When those emotions do come up, there's a lot more self criticism when they arise. So it's because of this discomfort and lack of awareness that they're engaging in behavior like viewing porn and masturbating in an effort to control these emotions. Then the individual is more likely to engage in viewing again, is this very strategy they use to control emotions generates a new set of emotions like guilt, and shame and loneliness? Yeah, you know, the drill into our minds gonna say, Hey, I know how to control those emotions. Why don't you view porn again? It actually does work temporarily. You escape from those emotions, there's a bit of relief. Then they come back again, and our mind is really only interested in helping you get out of his comfort in this moment. It doesn't think about, hey, long term, this isn't working. So like, we're just kicking these emotion cans down the road. They're still there. But my job is to help you feel there in this moment. So go ahead and view porn and masturbate. My job is complete. Our mind is not always designed to thinking about this isn't what I want in the long run. And this isn't healthy, and it's impacting my relationships. Our mind just saying, let's get away from this emotion now. And that's a compulsive pattern.
Liz Hale 10:37
Got it? Let's go better. Now.
Dave Schramm 10:39
That's interesting. Dr. Seeley in your in your TED talk. You use the analogy you tell story about a river? And I think it's a it's a clever analogy. Do you mind sharing that with our listeners?
Dr. Cameron Staley 10:50
Yeah, I think I thought about this because all the adults I work with that struggle with porn. They used to be kids. Back in the day, I think we forget that we see our partner that struggling or other people in our life, and we're like, oh, what are they doing and why this is so hurtful. And I'd say for most people, they begin viewing porn when they're children. They're eight or 10 or 12. They're really young. And so I share the story that, you know, imagine you're growing up, you know, out in idyllic countryside and, and life is just carefree. And you're out there adventuring. And you didn't know that there's a river kind of behind your home. And your parents were afraid that you might find that river and drowned. And so they made it a point never to tell you about rivers, and never to sign you up for swimming lessons, because they were trying to keep you safe. Then one day, I mean, kids are curious, they explore and they find the river. You're gonna skip some rocks across it and wade in and eventually, you're gonna get in there, and it's gonna sweep you away. You're gonna get yourself back to the shore. And say like what happened? Like, this was exciting and interesting. But then it got scary and overwhelming. I don't know what this is. Then you go back home, and your parents are angry at you. And it's like, how dare you like swimming? And you know, why are you covered in water? It's like, I don't even know what this river was like, What's swimming. I think I've seen that over and over that these children are kind of blamed for struggling with sexuality, when they didn't even know what was happening. They don't have a mentor, they don't have a swim coach. It's not safe to talk about water. It's like, oh, but it's your fault. You struggle with porn. In a lot of ways, we're kind of setting up our kids to fail if we're not comfortable having conversations about sexuality instead of just enforcing the rules and saying, oh, you're a bad kid for wanting to learn how to swim.. it's like, oh, that's what kids do. That's how our mind is, we're curious to explore. We put all the responsibility on the kids for figuring this out? And you're not allowed to make a mistake? And I think that's a recipe for a lot of struggles.
Dave Schramm 12:58
Yeah. Yeah, that's a great analogy. I mean, education, young and having being open an open conversation. I love that. Okay. You also, you made a brilliant discovery in your dissertation research, right? The viewing pornography, it's not outside of our control. So how did you determine this through the brain patterns?
Dr. Cameron Staley 13:21
Yeah, so I'm sure just like both of you, the only message I'd heard growing up was porn as an addiction. That's what I heard. You know, if you got addiction, you go to treatment for addiction. It wasn't until a graduate school where I was interested in working with couples, and I thought, I need to learn more about sexuality.
Dr. Cameron Staley 13:38
My mentor said, well, you gotta come up with a research topic for your thesis and dissertation. I was actually sitting in church one Sunday and listening to somebody talk about how pornography was an addiction and how it destroys relationships, and typically I would just nod along. Yeah, I agree. But in that moment, I thought, oh, you know, I wonder what the research actually says about pornography. I've never looked it up. I just agree. It's so yeah, morally, I'm opposed to it. But, you know, how does it impact relationships and is it an addiction. This was about 15 years ago now, where I looked at the research, and was really surprised, I couldn't find a single experimental study, demonstrating that pornography was an addiction, like other substance use. I thought, well, this is strange, like, everybody knows, this is an addiction, where's the science? I decided to do the research. I really thought that we'd be the first lab to demonstrate that pornography functions like an addiction, just like other substance use, so we brought people in that were struggling with porn, and we were monitoring their brain activity using EEG as they watched some exciting films and some sexual films and some nature documentaries. I thought we'ed see similar brain patterns that we see with folks who struggle with methamphetamines or alcohol use, and we didn't, and I was really surprised.
Dr. Cameron Staley 14:58
We published these findings and we get a phone call from Dr. Phil's Hey, come on our show. I mean showing up in like, Time Magazine, all these outlets and, and the headlines are basically researchers disprove sex addiction, which is not what we did. That's not what you do in science, you don't prove or disprove anything. We just didn't find evidence for a neurological addiction with porn that we see with substance use. But what we did find is those who struggle with regulating their viewing of porn, experienced more negative emotions, while they were viewing sexual images in our lab. So they did feel more distressed, they felt more anxious, more shame and guilt. And of course, the media doesn't take that as a headline because emotions aren't sexy. No, it's not. But it's like, emotions are driving our actions. So emotions organize us. So when you break down the root of emotions, it just means to put in motion. And so if we're having these emotions guiding our actions, but we're not even aware of them, they're leading us down paths, we don't even want to go, we don't even know how we got there. And so if we can increase the awareness of these emotions, we can better understand what is driving these actions. And that is what gives us some choice. But when we're not aware of those and just call us an addiction, we're kind of shifting on autopilot and relinquishing control the will, and that is what guides our actions. But when we are aware of thoughts, emotions and urges, we have the power to disobey them. I think about, it might be true for both of you, I have urges to check my phone quite a bit. Like when there's a little ding or vibrates my elbow to check my email, better check my text messages. If I'm going fast and not thinking, I pull it out and I check. But if I'm slowing down, I'm more aware, I can fill that little buzz, and I can disobey that urge. I can keep my phone in my pocket and keep a walking and keep chatting. So as we slow down and increase that awareness, and recognize, oh, maybe I'm feeling stressed. Maybe that's why I'm checking my phone so much. That allows us to make decisions. We don't have to have the urges calling the shots.
Liz Hale 17:07
That is very cool. Let's go back to what partners can do, if you don't mind. I mentioned the client I have who really prefers her husband has a porn addiction. She prefers to address this because of the emotional distress, correct?
Dr. Cameron Staley 17:20
Absolutely
Liz Hale 17:21
Because of her own emotional distress. So what can we do instead? As partners? How do we help? How do we come about this? We need to understand that emotions are driving this behavior. So please, what do we do?
Dr. Cameron Staley 17:32
I've found one of the best ways to help is find how you relate. You may not struggle with pornography. But all humans engage in coping strategies to get away from this comfort. We do a lot of things, you may turn to snacking, that's my go to. I will find myself in the pantry quite a bit when I'm stressed.
Dave Schramm 17:52
With a big bowl of ice cream. That's right.
Dr. Cameron Staley 17:55
Oh, I love the ice cream. So snacking is one, we turn to social media, we watch the news, maybe gaming or shopping or other substances or doing pornography, we may have different names for all those but the underlying functions the same. Were attempting to escape discomfort. That's it. The challenge is we put like a special category around porn where it's like, oh, but that one's not okay, like that one's icky. That one's uncomfortable. It's okay that I eat my Oreos, that's my go to, to escape discomfort. That is stress, but yours isn't okay. So really finding that, you know, all humans are trying to cope with distress. Some of these efforts are quite healthy, like having conversations about it or going on a walk. Those are healthy ways to cope with discomfort. Other ones are still coping strategies, just less healthy. So how do you relate, this is universal, this is human nature. Then to think about what kind of role you want to play in your relationship. Often when someone is showing porn, we shift from being a partner to being a parent, or to being the police or the accountability, buddy. All of those roles, I find are really quite disconnecting, and take us away from the partner friendship supporting mode.
Dr. Cameron Staley 19:17
I found that a lot of people turn to viewing porn because they want a sense of connection. So if we shift to that parent mode, or police mode, or accountability, or fostering a disconnection, and it's going to wrap up that ongoing behavior, so stay in that partner mode, and then focus on what is it that you want to grow, rather than what you're trying to eliminate? So our mind can only do it can't not do. So if you're thinking about hey, how can we spend more quality time together, you can come up with all kinds of ideas. But if you focus instead on how can we not view porn, your mind spending time thinking about porn, even though you're not trying to do it, you're stuck. And so trying not to think about porn is basically a giant billboard for porn. It's gonna be on your mind quite a bit. So focus on things you're wanting to build. So our attention is like a water hose, and whatever water is gonna grow. So for watering the trees and the plants, and they're gonna grow, if you're watering the weeds, because you don't like them, they're gonna grow too. So focus on what you want. I'd also say having those open, honest conversations around emotions and fears, and also practicing empathy for yourself and each other, that this human condition is challenging. And relationships are hard. And, and we don't always cope in the healthiest ways that's pretty human. And having some compassion for that experience.
Liz Hale 20:37
There's a lot of dearth of empathy for someone who's viewing pornography, I'd say, sadly, right. It's heartbreaking. It's hurt on top of hurt now.
Dr. Cameron Staley 20:49
And that's maybe what got me interested here is I had a view of who struggled with porn. And it wasn't a positive view. It's like all kinds of people that struggle with porn, it was very negative, and judgmental, until I started working with people who struggle with porn. My first experience was down at the University of BYU down in Provo, and working with college students there. The first group I co-lead was for pornography concerns. I was really surprised. It's like, wow, like the folks, this is a religious University. The folks that struggle with porn tended to be more religious than the other folks. And it's like, oh, this is odd. And they tended to be more sensitive and more caring and very driven, very perfectionistic and had really high standards for themselves. I thought this is really different than who I had assumed struggle with porn. And now we do know that folks that struggle with scrupulosity, which is kind of a religious OCD, or struggle with these really high morals, tend to struggle with porn more. And so often, it's these people that are so driven to be really obedient and good family members and working really hard in school. Those are kind of risk factors for this struggle. And then they feel terrible about themselves. And then we pile it on with the same language, you are terrible and an awful attic. And I found that folks who struggle with porn are often a vulnerable group. They are some of the best kindest people I've ever met. But they view themselves as the worst person imaginable. And it's hard to see that that contrast.
Liz Hale 22:23
Oh, my goodness, I just I just hope and pray that the people that needed to hear that contrast have heard that contrast, that is really mind blowing. To hear it from the such a different angle. The incredible hearts that are stuck sometimes in this compulsive compulsive behavior is beautiful.
Dave Schramm 22:39
Yeah, that's amazing. I can I, I can't help but think that some of the listeners listening to this, or they've heard other talks, you know, approach their partner and say, you know, what, if, if I ever caught you looking at pornography, I would leave you so fast. I can't help but think you know what that does to the person and makes them think, Oh, I've really got to hide this now. Because now if I get less so. So what's a better approach to something? You know, someone's thinking, I wonder if my partner is viewing pornography? And rather than threaten them? What What could they do?
Dr. Cameron Staley 23:09
Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think about you, if you have that fear, you can bring it up and but in really understanding way to say, you know, I heard this podcast today. I hadn't really thought about pornography, that's not something we've talked about. And this might be something people struggle with more than I had thought. And it sounds like people struggle with porn from a very young age that they found this to be a coping strategy to manage stress, and loneliness, or even boredom, or they're trying to find some connection. And, and often folks feel a lot of shame around this. So they tend not to talk openly about it. And so I was just kind of curious, like, this isn't something I've struggled with, but I'm wondering if it's something maybe you've struggled with? And if so, I'd love to hear more about your experiences, because it may not be something I understand very well and I might be scared about it. Or there might be some myths, I might believe but you know, I would really truly like to know you and support you with this. And this might be a hard conversation. But I'm committed to seeing you and getting to know you, you know, how has this been for you?
Dave Schramm 24:14
Yeah, yeah, much better than the than the blame or the threat approach to that and even normalizing it right and being able to normalize a struggle I like how you said it may be my coping mechanism isn't pornography, but maybe it's chocolate or maybe it's online shopping or you know something else and so to kind of normalize I guess the struggle not that doing pornography everyone you know, it's normal but to normalize that there that it is a struggle. A lot of people struggle with this this compulsive behavior.
Liz Hale 24:45
How young Did you say, Cameron? How younger children viewing pornography on average?
Dr. Cameron Staley 24:51
Yeah, you know, my experience working with adults with porn they typically in the stories are like, nearly identical. It's like Oh, when I was 8 or 10, usually it's been before 12. I'd say occasionally someone's like, when I was in my 20s, I started viewing it's like, really?
Liz Hale 25:09
That's unusual.
Dr. Cameron Staley 25:10
Yeah, it's usually when I was a kid. And often it's like, yeah, I grew up in a home where we didn't talk about sexuality, or my parents have the talk. And that was really weird and uncomfortable, and we're never having that talk again. And so it's usually kids that grew up in that climate where it's like, we don't talk about it. And kids are really smart. And they learned that if we can't talk about it, something must be really shameful about it. Or really wrong. And kids are also naturally curious. That's how we learn and grow. So kids are exploring bodies and sexuality. And then they come across images, and they find that, oh, that was exciting. Oh, but we don't talk about this, something must be wrong. It's I can't talk to my folks about it. And that's what kind of contributes to that further withdrawing, and then you'd like, Oh, I'm even more disconnected. Oh, viewing sexual images helped me feel better. I'll do that. Oh, now I'm feeling more disconnected. I just seen so many people grow up in such a lonely way where they feel like a terrible person. They can't talk to their folks are just leaders about it. And there's just all this shame over the years. But on the outside. These are kids that are getting pretty good grades and doing well in sports teams and good kids, but inwardly feel terrible.
Liz Hale 26:23
You don't know who's suffering, do you? We are so good about that presentation. And this one, we don't talk about the river. Right. That is such an excellent analogy. So you know, can I ask you this? What about sexual abuse? Because that often happens is that in the younger ages, do you see that also, being the perfect place to have this bloom? As far as unwanted pornography viewing?
Dr. Cameron Staley 26:49
Yeah, that's a good...
Liz Hale 26:49
maybe it's not?
Dr. Cameron Staley 26:51
Oh, go ahead. Let's go ahead finish that thought,
Liz Hale 26:53
well, maybe I'm so sorry. I didn't need more explanation. Maybe it wasn't pornography viewing, but maybe it was someone touching them inappropriately, or someone exposing themselves to them.
Dr. Cameron Staley 27:00
So that's a helpful thought we're so focused on the porn is the problem. Often people are viewing porn, to cope with other stuff. And what I've seen is often there's underlying mental health concerns. And so I've seen people that struggle with social anxiety, where they struggle with depression. And they found that viewing Porn was a way to alleviate some of those feelings of anxiety or alleviate some of that despair with depression. I've seen that folks struggle with ADHD, often struggle with compulsive sexual behavior that's not that uncommon, or autism, a lot of folks that struggle with social connections and emotional awareness, and some of those cues, want relationships and connections. But sometimes that feels like a foreign language a bit. And I've seen a lot of porn struggles there. And the big one you mentioned is often people experienced trauma. And it can be physical abuse, or separation from family loss of loved ones, it can be sexual abuse. And so that's really confusing as a kid where it's like, I had an unwanted sexual experience that was very scary, and not something that I wanted. But also my body responded, where there may have like, oh, gosh, I still got to rouse that's confusing. All of that's overwhelming and confusing and traumatic. So our minds like, how can we help you feel better, like turn to few food turn to substances view pornography. And so they're just some of the ways that we would cope with underlying mental health concerns, including trauma, but it could introduce porn, where it's like, oh, sexual experiences, kind of help me feel better, but they're tied to some really scary things, too. And so viewing porn is kind of that bandade, that also makes the wound a little worse, too. So that's, yeah, there's lots of origins to this. So porn addiction, really eliminates our ability to exploit what is going on, that can shoot into this and abuse could be one of those.
Liz Hale 28:55
I can see that you must be very much pro parents staying very aware of their child's behaviors, right online, what they're doing where they're at. Do you is that part of your message? Dr. Staley is for parents. Stay alert. Stay aware.
Dr. Cameron Staley 29:09
Absolutely. So I believe pornography concerns can be completely prevented. Through education and relationships, I think it can be completely avoidable. And if you develop that strong relationship with your kids, that, hey, I'm with you. We can talk about whatever and we can talk about your challenges with school or pressures you feel or our bodies or sexuality. Or sometimes you get an erection, and that's embarrassing. You don't want it or this is what puberty is, like, if we can have those conversations and feel okay about our bodies. I don't think we really need to turn to porn, to try to learn things or to soothe ourselves. We can have a better way to do that is through those conversations with our folks. But often we're like, often comfortable. We don't want to have that chat. It's like yeah, you're kind of making sure your kids don't know how to swim then we want to set them up for success, and sometimes having those conversations that are uncomfortable, but I feel like this problem with porn can be, can be avoidable.
Liz Hale 30:06
Did you, are you, also kind of, do you encourage phone checking? Because sometimes kids are not going to come forward when they've been viewing pornography or a buddy sent them pictures?
Dr. Cameron Staley 30:17
Yeah. So I would say know your kid and their developmental readiness. So sometimes I apologize to my kids, because their dad was psychologists like, I've got a teen and she's like, all my friends have smartphones, she's like, but I don't. Yeah, cuz your dad loves you, and knows about our little adolescent minds that were not able to manage all these notifications and having all this information at your fingertips. And my oldest is really patient with me. And so when she did receive a phone this year, because she's getting to 14, and she's mature and kind of reading and we've had those conversations, I we have limits on it, where it's like, yeah, your phone goes to bed at 8:30, and it stays upstairs. But I actually don't restrict things on her device. Because I found that some parents that's like an illusion of safety, or there's a restriction, therefore, I don't have to have conversations anymore. I don't have to educate them. And so I'm okay with my oldest, where it's like, it's okay, if you experience some mistakes and learn some things, and we can chat about it. And, and I do check in every once in awhile, okay, we come across anything that's uncomfortable or messages with your peers, you're like, I don't know how to handle that, or you come across sexual images. So it's kind of just one of those things, I check with general safety and help with development. Each time it's like, yeah, I appreciate you talking about it. And, and she's someone where she's pretty open. And she's like, Yeah, I get it. You do all these podcasts and things? I'm not sure I'm bored. If I did, I'd come talk to you like, he's pretty aware of that. So we focus on other things like, how are these chats with you and your buddies? Because sometimes girls are not very kind. Let's talk about that. So we have some parameters, but I don't rely on filters to do my job.
Liz Hale 32:03
Wow, oh, that's powerful. That's a powerful statement. That's a powerful statement, I don't allow filters to help me do my job.
Dr. Cameron Staley 32:09
My experience has been with all the adults, I've worked with that struggle with porn, they all experienced filters. And it's like it was contribute, struggle, and it communicates the message that you can't be trusted, and you don't make your decisions, we have to have an external thing doing that. And I want to teach my kids that I do trust you, and you're gonna make mistakes, and we can learn to grow from them.
Liz Hale 32:32
And when a child does view pornography, you handle it by very matter of fact.
Dr. Cameron Staley 32:38
That's it, I'd be like, Okay, what did you view? What was that like for you? It's like, was that exciting? Was it scary for you? Was it confusing? And it's to really understand that experience, it's a learning opportunity. And, and I have to, I guess, a few months ago, were my kids are watching just a music video on YouTube. And the cover art was just like a naked woman laying on a cloud. And it kind of popped up and my wife was like, oh, hurry, shut that down. I said, actually, let's pull it back up again and take a look. What do you think about this? Like, why is she naked on the cloud here for the song? We're talking about? Like, yeah, they're trying to sell music. That's the objective here. And she is attractive? What are your thoughts about using our bodies to try to sell a product that feels a little off? But it's normal to be like, oh, yeah, she looks nice. And that's curious. And you're interested in that that's really normal. But also people try to sell us stuff. Like, let's not get caught into that. But we also have to be, we don't be scared of it. But we also didn't need to keep coming back to it. That's just a marketing tool that they're using on us.
Dave Schramm 33:44
So let's say that now someone has a struggle, you know, they're listening, and they're a spouse or a partner has a struggle. Tell us a little bit about some of the solutions. I know Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, right. It's been around for quite a while the studies are showing some pretty promising results. Tell us a little about that.
Dr. Cameron Staley 34:01
Yeah, so acceptance, commitment therapy has been around for about 40 years. And it has over 800 randomized clinical trials now. So it's a well established treatment for a variety of mental health concerns. And so it wasn't designed to get rid of porn that wasn't its origin. But it is addressing really the root of all mental health concerns. And so that's why it's considered a trans diagnostic treatment. It does treat depression and anxiety and trauma and eating concerns and substance use it also as a treatment for OCD, and compulsive behaviors. And so it's amazing but the first research study, looking at any treatments for reducing porn occurred at Utah State University in 2010, like 12 years ago, and so we've looked at the last, Utah State yay! We've done a review of the last 25 years of research around sex addiction. There's been hundreds of studies trying to answer this question. is porn an addiction or not. But there's been less than 10 studies looking at what treatments are helpful. And that's shocking. It's like, That's how far we've come. So when you look at pornography, specifically, there were only three studies that looked at what treatments work, not a single study looked at do addiction approaches reduce porn, that research actually does not exist, which is shocking, it's like, but that's what we've been doing. We've been thinking, but the three research studies that do exist found Acceptance and Commitment Therapy to be an effective treatment. So the most, I guess, robust study came out in 2016, so six years ago, and they found that folks that have been struggling with years of pornography viewing, were able to reduce their viewing by over 90%, in about 12 weeks. And these are folks that have tried addiction recovery programs, 12 Step programs, chatting with counselors and church leaders, and like, less than 12 weeks. Now, about half the people weren't viewing at all, but the other is drastically reduced. Because we're not focused on controlling a symptom. We're starting to increase awareness of emotions and understand how our mind works, and letting go of trying to control sexuality instead, pursue our relationships and our values. And that shift really helps people move forward, and really letting go this idea that I'm an addict that keeps us stuck, and starting to see ourselves who we truly are. And often, it's really, really good people that struggle. Because if you didn't care about your sexuality, and relationships, you wouldn't be struggling with this problem. Um, but because you do care, you do tend to get stuck, and struggle, but with the right mindset, people are able to move forward in a matter of weeks. It doesn't take years and years.
Dave Schramm 36:44
So a loved one or someone who is struggling with that as they're looking for resources, and there's 1000s of therapists, I mean, you recommend having them ask or look at the website to see what experience they have with the act with the Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, is that right?
Dr. Cameron Staley 36:58
I think that'd be that is currently our only research supported treatment is acceptance, Commitment Therapy. And so there are a lot of clinicians out there that are trained in Act. So I first learned it down at BYU, they've been using act for about 20 years at their Counseling Center to Reduce pornography viewing. There's a lot of helpful General Act books out there. So Russ Harris wrote a great one called the happiness trap. It's not going to talk about porn at all. But they found that just reading act principles, reduces porn. And because you're targeting the underlying concerns, and then to help folks out, I developed an app that you can get on your Android or iPhone, called the life after pornography coach app. And it's based on acceptance, Commitment Therapy. So it'll walk through all the principles, it's got interactive tools to increase emotional awareness, there's a built in form, or you can chat with other folks working through that principles. There's a free seven day trial that folks can check out and I think it's like 10 bucks a month or something. And then I also developed a life after pornography online program. And it's 10 weeks. And it basically be what it would be like working with me one on one doing act therapy. And I've interviewed a dozen experts on on relationships and sexuality and act and there's a workbook there. I put that all together, where folks can access that from the comfort of their own homes. And that's less than the cost of a single session. So for under 100 bucks, you can learn act, and I've gotten a lot of folks are able to move past this concern on their own with the right principles. And then if folks do need some additional support, I do offer counseling in Utah and Idaho. Just online for folks that need some more one on one support. Because sometimes when they find that when they start letting go of the porn struggle, there's some other things going on there. Other mood issues, or anxiety or relationships, or they need to learn about sexuality. Um, so folks need more additional support. I'm happy to help them there, too.
Liz Hale 39:03
I love that. Let's say that I was your client Cameron, if you don't mind. What would Acceptance and Commitment look like? Please, if I had some unwanted pornography viewing, do you mind just giving me a brief synopsis of what that would look like?
Dr. Cameron Staley 39:15
Yeah, a lot of it is like, alright, Liz, let's try to understand, you know, what's coming up for us. We talk about this struggle with pornography, or some of those emotions that are there. And often people are like, I don't know, I just had this terrible addiction. I want to stop. And it's like, yeah, when you've been struggling,
Liz Hale 39:32
we can't really help myself, right?
Dr. Cameron Staley 39:34
And so a lot of it is let's start to identify, what are some of those emotions? What's it? What's the struggle been like? And for a lot of people, it's really isolating and it's really scary. It's really lonely, and there's so much shame. So as we start to increase awareness of those emotions, we can start to shine a light on what's really going on. We can start to attend to that and resolve that. We're also going to shine a light on what our minds try to do. And so our mind is just trying to help you. And so it's like, oh, you're filling stuff. Why don't you go view porn and masturbate to feel better. And so instead of struggling with their mind and judging it and fighting it, we actually might practice thanking our mind, for that strategy to say, Oh, you recognize I was feeling really overwhelmed. Thanks for recommending I view porn and masturbate to feel better. I'm not going to do that. But I appreciate that you recognize I'm struggling here. I'm stressed. So in a lot of ways, our mind is like this overly helpful best friend, it's always there for us, and sometimes doesn't give the best advice. We want to keep that friend. But we don't always have to do what it recommends. And so it is changing our relationship with our mind and our thoughts, increasing awareness for our emotions.
Liz Hale 40:50
And that's the acceptance, I'm going to start accepting my emotions, I'm going to accept what my brain is telling me thank you brain, I realize you just let me know I'm stressed, you gave me the idea of viewing pornography. I'm not I don't think I'm going to take that idea. But give me another one. But I'm going to start accepting how I'm feeling is that the acceptance part?
Dr. Cameron Staley 41:06
That's a great reframe. So the commitment is basically to myself is that if another way of saying that I'm committed to me, what kind of life do I want, for me?
Dr. Cameron Staley 41:06
That's the acceptance part. And the commitment part is, instead of focusing and trying to get rid of stuff you don't want, let's focus on creating things you do want. Let's focus on pursuing those relationships or increasing your faith or connecting with others or proving some skills or education or your career. Let's build things you want. And what we found is a lot of people have been so consumed on trying to resolve the struggle, they have not been developing purpose and meaning in their life. And so viewing porn has really been a soothing strategy, from living a life devoid of meaning. And so if we start to develop that purpose in that meaning at cultivating that, that need to soothe yourself from a life without meaning kind of goes down. And you understand, Oh, I am human, and I'm gonna feel things when I'm doing things I really care about. That's okay. Those feelings and thoughts aren't the problem. I'm going to keep doing things I care about and my mind is going to keep recommending viewing porn sometimes. That's okay, too. I don't have to take that porn pitstop, though I can keep going. But it makes sense. My mind is trying to help me out.
Dr. Cameron Staley 42:19
Yeah, so the committed it's really action. And it's committed action in a direction, consistent with our values. And so often I think about values as a direction, we're heading like, we're heading west. That's where we want to go, I want to be a better parent, or I want to care for other people, I want to serve them. I want to develop my empathy. That's where I want to go. But a lot of people say, Well, I want to go there, but try not to go south. And it's hard to head west, when you're trying not to go somewhere else. So it's like, I'm going to try to not to avoid porn, it's like, that's not really focused on where we're heading. So we want to clear direction on where we want to go. And so values are the direction. And goals are really the steps or the miles we take in that direction. So I might value being a good parent. But that doesn't have a lot of meaning, unless I'm like listening to my kids or going to their soccer games or checking in on them. Those are the things that are consistent. And that's the committed action, I take in line with my values. But focusing all my effort and trying not to have sexual thoughts and feelings, really isn't in the direction of value. And so it doesn't really get us to where we want to go. So focusing on those things that are truly meaningful is the committed action part.
Liz Hale 43:34
Let's get get into the business of living. I think I've heard you say that.
Dave Schramm 43:40
That's really powerful. Well, our our time, man, it goes so fast every time and I love our Yeah, our rich discussion and the things that we've talked about so far. Dr. Staley, is there anything before we wrap up anything that we haven't asked or anything that that you want to be sure we call it a takeaway of the day? Is there any kind of just nugget of information that you hope listeners will take away from our discussion today?
Dr. Cameron Staley 43:48
Yeah, I would say I often want to instill hope for people. And often we get caught up in these stories that oh, we've got this struggle with depression or anxiety or an addiction. And this is gonna take a lot of work and years and years before I can get into my life that I want. And I found that really, the things that matter most are just on the other side of discomfort, just on the other side of anxiety or nervousness or vulnerability or taking that little risk. And if we keep avoiding that discomfort, it turns into anxiety disorders, or it turns into withdrawing from life and that's depression, or it turns into a compulsive sexual behavior like pornography. But this life you want is just on the other side of discomfort. Then we can develop that skill set to create some more space for those emotions and that discomfort and create some awareness for that. You begin living our lives So now that this doesn't have to be years and years of work before you can, okay, I can finally have that relationship now. We can start having that today. And for me, that's inspiring. It's like I can be struggling with something. And I can learn that skill that I need to get past that discomfort and that life is right around the corner. And I've seen that over and over in my own life and the people's I've worked with. And so I want people that hold on to that and not get stuck with it. I got this addiction, it's never gonna happen for me. Life is right there just that far away.
Dave Schramm 45:35
Yeah, love it, Liz, what's your takeaway the day?
Liz Hale 45:38
You know, I love that Cameron talks about some of the best people it's very true. Some of the best people I know, have these compulsive tendencies, right? These compulsive behaviors and emotions drive the behaviors. I just appreciate this message of hope and healing opportunity. It's just, it's just right there. So I'm so glad for you, Cameron Staley, and for what you've built to help those who are struggling with this your gift.
Dave Schramm 46:01
Oh, it's really Yeah, you know, I, one of my takeaways from our great discussion has been this, maybe this this this mindful awareness of, I think I mentioned it before, even on this podcast to feel it, but not follow it to recognize I have a choice. I don't need this to go down this slide. I can, I can feel something be aware and almost catch myself, and then have that conversation in the brain and say, ha, that's really interesting. I just felt this urge to do this. And I'm not going to do it this time. This time. I'm gonna do this this other direction, something more that I really value and something that brings me meaning in my life. So
Liz Hale 46:38
happiness. Yeah, love it.
Dave Schramm 46:44
Again tell us your website one more time?
Dr. Cameron Staley 46:48
Yeah, folks can find me on Facebook or Instagram at Dr. Cameron Staley, or the life after series. And we also have a YouTube channel life after series where there's lots of free videos, and there's a lot of your podcasts, I've got some free trainings, but I just feel like with the right information, education, people can overcome this concern. So I just tried to make it as open and as accessible as possible. And then you can also find me on CameronStaleypH d.wordpress.com, where you can get a lot of those free trainings and resources. But there's so many things out there. And with that right direction, people can move forward now.
Dave Schramm 47:27
Yeah. Well, thanks for your time. Thanks for your resources, your tips, your insights. Man, we direct our listeners to all those great resources that the Cameron has mentioned. And now we have to let you go so much. Thanks so much for joining us today on another episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection podcast. We couldn't do this without you. So please join us again next time.
Dave Schramm 47:53
Thanks for joining us today. Hey, do us a favor and take a few minutes to subscribe to our podcasts and the Utah marriage commission YouTube channel where you can watch this and every episode of the show. When you hit the like button and leave a comment Your feedback helps us improve the show. And don't forget to share this episode with friends. You can also follow and connect with us on Instagram, at stronger marriage life and on Facebook at stronger marriage. Be sure to share with us what topics you want us to explore or what you loved about today's episode. If you want even more resources to improve your relationship connection, visit our website at stronger marriage.org where you'll find free workshops, webinars, relationship surveys and more. Each episode of stronger marriage connection is hosted and sponsored by the Utah marriage commission at Utah State University. Finally, a big thanks to our producers Rex Polanis, Kierston Wilson and the team at Utah State University and you our audience. You make this show possible