AgWellness Episode 10: Interview with Stephen Bunnell
Josh Dallin 00:09
We would like to welcome everyone to our Episode 10 of our AgWellness podcast. My name is Josh Dallin and I've got my co host with me Jake Hadfield. And we are excited to welcome Steven Bunnell, who is going to be our guest today. We're very grateful for him taking the time to be here. And we're very excited because Stephen's going to help us to better understand help us and our listeners to better understand what it's like when you're seeking some help for for a mental illness, and what some of the outcomes and impacts might be from from that. So with that, welcome, Stephen, and can you please give us a short introduction? And tell us a little bit about your connection to the ag community?
Stephen Bunnell 00:58
Yeah, for sure. And thank you, thank you for having me. So appreciate it. Um, yeah, so I basically I grew up on a dairy in in Provo, Utah. Where I'm a fourth generation farmer myself. And usually when I tell people that they're, they're like, What? There aren't any dairies in Utah, in Provo, Utah. There aren't any dairies there and, and when they say that they're right. Because we were, we were kind of the last dairy farm and which in a predominant area, there were a lot of dairies there, but basically, so I, I grew up on the dairy in Provo, and then and then I went to school for for clinical social work to become a therapist. And during that time while I was in school, and soon after we moved back to Utah. There, there were like, my family was in the process of selling the farm. And and during that time, I kind of went through an existential crisis type thing where I'm like, Oh, my gosh, or are we going to lose farming and our family and at that time on, where, you know, we started looking at other ranches. And so we got a ranch up in Idaho, which I managed. And my dad manages a little bit of the land we have left down in, in Provo, but, and so I do therapy all online. And I work with folks online, you know, all through tele, telehealth, and then and then at the same time I do ranching on, you know, oh, along with that, you know, so we just, we just have a small herd of beef cows that we started and then moving from there.
Jake Hadfield 02:44
Well Stephen that's awesome. And I think a lot of our listeners appreciate hearing that, you know, kind of your background, how you're familiar with agriculture. And so you talked about how you provide virtual or telehealth appointments, right? And you can do that online. Can you kind of walk us through how someone would get started? Or how like that typical appointment would go when you are doing a telehealth session?
Stephen Bunnell 03:11
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I'll tell you, I love telehealth just because, like, we started with COVID and that's one of the weird things that was like, you know, there weren't a lot of positive things about COVID. But this was one where everything went online. And at first I was skeptical, I'm like, oh, with therapy and doing therapy with over the over online and with that, you know, is it the same connection and what I've learned is it totally is you can still have the same connection with someone online that you can in person but um, yeah, to answer your question about, about the process of getting started, like how our private practice works, you you can go online and book your own appointment. Or you can call me You know, I we offer 15 minute consultations, just you know, so if you have any questions about therapy or not, but you can call us and we'll book an appointment with you and and basically what happens is right before the appointment, an email gets sent to you. And it just has a link on the email that you click and you can you can open it, you know, you just do it right there and just kind of like how we are now you know, over telehealth and, and so and you can you can do it that way or also also I do phone calls and so if someone can't, you know, have A lot of my my rural farmers, you know, may not have access to good internet or whatnot. And so we can do a phone call if that if that works better and so yeah, but but the nice thing, the nice thing about teletherapy is that it saves time because you don't have to travel to in office, you don't even have to get out of your farm close anything, it's just, you know, you can do that often I'll see clients that they'll be doing their chores outside the house and be working on working on feeding the horses or the cows or something. And so it's, it's nice because it saves you time and gas money and like, kind of the inconveniences that come, you know. So.
Josh Dallin 05:24
I think that that that is amazing. And it's amazing to be able to utilize the technology that we have today. And I know often times, as I've spoken with individuals, and Jake has as well across the state that that time away from the farmer ranch can be one of the stumbling blocks, right? I mean, we Jake and I talk about in a in a training that we do about how the greatest asset on the farm is the producer. Right?
Stephen Bunnell 05:54
Right.
Josh Dallin 05:55
So when you remove that greatest asset, whether it's even for a day or two days, right to, to potentially come in for a session or do whatever is needed. That can be a big detriment, right to the to the overall production. And it can add increased stress, stress and unneeded stress to that producer as well. So I think it's amazing what you're able to do. And and again, thanks so much for sharing what you're able to do, because I think there's a lot of individuals out there that maybe don't realize that this is even an option. And so we hope that we hope that by sharing this information they can they can learn a little bit more about, you know, what, what the process is, like, as you mentioned, how they get engaged and those types of things. Now, my question comes with a little bit of a twist and asking, Okay, well, they see you they do it, it's nice and convenient. It's online, but what what kind of outcomes can people expect when they engage in this virtual or telehealth therapy? You know, what, what, what can they expect? Like, what does that look like?
Stephen Bunnell 07:01
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And, and, yeah, if I could talk a little bit about therapy in general, and then maybe also explain why it works. Because what what happens with therapy is like, a lot of people have this view of like, oh, you know, the guy laying on the couch and talking about all their, all their you know problems with their, their parents and stuff. And it's not necessarily, you know, while we might look into family background, or, you know, a lot of therapy is like discussing what a problem is that, that you have, whether it be relationships, anxiety, or stress or depression, or it could be, it could be anything, and just discussing it, and, and then my job as the therapist is to, like, first hear your story, you know, hear what, what's going on, and then point out on the side, like, what, like, external resources that you might have available to you, as well as internal strengths, and trying to bring those to the surface? And, and it's, it's a weird process, and I'll kind of tell why therapy works that the best analogy I have is, is there, we had one of those old New Holland bale wagons, you know, from the 70s. And, and we had a pull behind, it wasn't I wish it was self propelled, but it wasn't, you know, we added the tractor, and that thing would break, probably every load. One time, it broke down again, I crawled under the bale wagon to fix it and what, you know, I was under there probably an hour and my dad was in the field next to us. And he, he saw that I was kind of having some problems. And so he he came over to look at it, see what was going on. And, and, you know, I thought I knew what I was doing. But like everything I did wasn't working. And what happened is at that point, my, my dad, like came and he was standing over the bale wagon, like, over the front part. And he's like, Oh, is it this thing right here? And I'm like, No, it can't be I've been over here an hour working on this, you know, like, it can't be that and I, I got up and looked and I'm like, Oh, it totally is, you know, there was some baling twine that got wrapped around a lever and, and the reason why I brought that up is because my dad could see it from a different point of view. He saw what was happening from a different point of view that I couldn't see. And, and the other pieces is that little did I know but he had had that exact same problem before he'd seen it and and so and so that kind of that's why therapy works as like the therapist can look at something from a different point of view and and as well as they've had experiences with working with that in the past and kind of have the knowledge of how to how to deal with that, and so it's, it's, um, that's one of the reasons why therapy works. And often just talking about a problem, what happens is, when you, when you think about the brain, you know, it's electrical neurons that are firing. And you know, and as you guys know, our thoughts go million miles an hour, all the time, and they're, they're traveling that fast. And so with therapy, just talking about the problem, and being able to put words to it like it, it slows down your brain processes, puts puts the problem out in front of you kind of, you get a little distance from it, and you can look at it from a different angle. And so usually, like, I'll have skills that I teach clients that are helpful, and I'll have different points of view and stuff. And, and also a lot of the time, the answers that people are looking for, come from themselves, as well. And it's just because of that, that ability to speak out what's going on and look at it from a different point of view, you know, and having someone else that look at it with you.
Josh Dallin 11:11
So I'm just a, like a follow up to that. What, how quickly, and I guess maybe this is in answers is individually, but how quickly, can somebody expect to see some outcomes through sessions with you?
Stephen Bunnell 11:27
Yeah, yeah, for sure. What I'll what I'd say is, is I, often within the first session, someone feels better just getting it out, and getting the challenge out, like, within the first session, it's like, okay, like, it's nice to finally release this, you know, I kind of this may sound like a disgusting analogy, but it's, it's like throwing up, you know, usually when we, when we, when we're, we're sick, we like, okay, feel the nausea. And when we throw up, it's like, it's gross coming out and stuff. But once it's out, we feel a lot better. You know, and we're like, okay, now now we can do it. But, and that's what the so usually by the first session, just getting out what your problem is, is really helpful. But as we continue to talk about it, and kind of like, look at different mind shifts that people can have or add, there's always little, it's funny, because there's always a little coping skills or like tricks you can do with your brain that that help you feel better. And, and, you know, so what, what I tend to see is with within like, two to four months, usually people are like, the initial problem they came to resolve is, they're usually in a lot better of a place after after I'm working on that. And so, so yeah, to about two to four months is kind of what we see. And, and but yeah,
Josh Dallin 12:57
I really love that. Just as you know, we've went around the state and talked to a lot of individuals. I mean, a lot of times these burdens are being carried for years, right. And it's so refreshing to talk about a solution that in such a short period of time can make a complete difference for that individual. So thanks so much for sharing that.
Stephen Bunnell 13:20
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Jake Hadfield 13:22
Yeah. And I really appreciate your analogies I related with all of them really well, especially I've worked with those an old bale wagon, like you described. So I understand that completely. So thank you for sharing that that really clicked in my mind. But kind of go on with our next question here. As you know, you've listened to the podcast and how we try and focus on mental health related to the ag industry. So in your work, as you have gone along and worked with members of the community, what are the primary concerns that you see?
Stephen Bunnell 13:55
Yeah. And it's, it's funny because you can find usual patterns that that tend to happen. And one one pattern that I see is that like, being able to decipher what you can or can't control, you know, as we know, the ag industry, there's, there's so much things you can't control within it, you know, you can't control it. If the Canal Company takes half your water shares or with the drought or the price of hay goes up, or you know, or a fertilizer or diesel is super high. And a lot of the time what I like farmers and ranchers take that whole burden on themselves. You know, like this is like, if something's failing on the farm, it's my fault, you know, and tend to put that pressure on their shoulders and so apart and I often see like depression and frustration and anger usually stem from that they're usually just different sides of the same coin, which is like This, this feeling of this lack of control. And so part of it is being able to like, like, decipher through what you can or can't control and, and like, hey, let's focus on what you can control and just accept the things you can't control, you know, let's, and going from there. And so that's a, that's a big burden that I see that for a lot of people is like trying to decipher that. Another another thing I see is like challenges within relationships. And, and something I find with like the farm or the ranch is that you almost have to add it in as the family like as part of the family dynamic. And like, it's another vital family member, you know, and if you're losing the farm, you have to grieve it, like you're grieving a family member and, and if you know, and just like fitting that into the, which adds a whole nother complicated dynamic, you know, that, that most families don't have, you know, and, but what I, what I tend to find with that is that it causes these different stresses and relationships, and it, whether it be between stresses between spouses, as well as stresses between generations to, you know, whether it be grandfather, and then the parents, and then the children, you know, that everybody has a different view and different way of, of like, okay, what should be done with a farm, and what I tend to find is that everybody has a good point of view, everybody holds a different picture, that's helpful. And so trying to help people get on the same page of, of like, okay, this is, you know, this is how we, this is the, this is what each person can bring to the table for the farm, and how do we make it work more smoothly, you know, and so, so relationships is another one. And then also going to Josh's point earlier about the, like suffering in silence, you know, that that people deal with these problems for years. And don't don't say anything about it. And, and the challenge with that is that, well, let me go back a step, something I see is that farmers tend to have this stubborn kindness, where they're willing to help anyone that needs it, but they're not willing to ask for help, you know, or say where they're struggling. And, and the, and the thing is, is that like, by sharing our struggles, like that helps other people as well, like when when someone else finds out that like, Oh, I'm not the only one that deals with depression, or I'm not the only one that deals with this anxiety or worried about losing the farm, like, that is so healing for people that connection is what's healing. And so, that's another thing is like, hey, how do we share this burden as a community of, of what's happening? And how do we all all bear the burden together? You know.
Jake Hadfield 18:16
Well, and Stephen, I think that's awesome. What you're sharing is that it just reminded me of a comment that we had in our last workshop, that Josh and I were presenting, and someone just made the comment. It's like, a lot of times, I think people think that they don't need help for mental health until it's on the brink of disaster. Like, it's the point where it's, like, really, really bad. But there some people might be living their lives completely miserable. But they're like, Well, I'm not at that point yet. So I'll just keep, you know, trucking along. And so I think that's a great point that you're bringing up in the fact that, you know, trying to just share that and kind of connect with others. I mean, I think that's a huge point.
Josh Dallin 18:54
Sure, you know, and one of the things that, you know, we've we've tried to teach everyone is, you know, back to that bale wagon analogy, you know, sometimes sometimes there's some preventative stuff, you know, that can be done that, that help you so that you're not broke down for a full week. Right. And, and then there's sometimes there's things that even if you've done preventative work on it, right, it still breaks down and there's some issues there, but kind of with that being said, what would you say that, that you think might be helpful for some of the folks in the ag industry who, who are struggling with their mental health, but are maybe on the fence about therapy? I know, we've talked a lot about the reasons why and kind of what it looks like. But, you know, it just never ceases to to be brought up about the stigma that's there, right that they're on the fence. They don't know if they want to enter into that realm. They have all these hesitations. What What would you say to those people who may be on the fence and and maybe, you know, you have some examples of individuals that you've been able to help that, that were on the fence that think differently now?
Stephen Bunnell 20:05
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I, um, I think the, the way I'd like to sell therapy, in a sense, is like looking at it, like, you know, we were, we're willing to hire these other professionals, you know, to help to help our family to help the ranch, you know, we have, we have the, the accountant, the, the, the lawyer, the, the, our feed guy, our you know, that we have these different specialists and professionals that come in to help and, and the one I think most of is like, like the veterinarian, you know, we have the vet that I always remember, it was kind of fun when our vet came, in fact, like, he was there. Jake, you said, You're from Spanish Fork, and like, our vet was Dr. Hunter from Nebo. Animal Clinic. And I always, I always remember him, him coming to the farm, and it was just like a blast, even though, sometimes we were swearing at cows and stuff. But a lot of the time, it was like, you know, we were just listening to his stories and cracking jokes with each other. And the thing is, if you think about it, like these professionals, like, like, they could relate to you, and at the same time, they could give expertise that they had, and, and, and it was helpful, and you're like, oh, yeah, if you're willing to let them help you, because they knew they were the experts in the area. And, and so therapy kind of the same way as is like, you know, therapists can relate to you, you know, they can we're trying to figure out this, this list of therapists of like, that, that can relate to the rural and agricultural communities and, but, but just going along with that is like, you know, we can, we can help you we can, we can be there to give advice on whether it be working on relationships, or dealing with stress or just, you know, different ways to navigate, navigate the challenges that life brings.
Jake Hadfield 22:23
Well, that's perfect. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a great point, you know, just because, in a lot of ways, I do think that therapy is kind of a, I don't want to say a new thing in ag, but it's kind of one thing that's becoming more of a trend overall, just looking into things, especially that the conditions that are facing, I mean, I don't know how much you guys in Idaho dealt with the drought. But I know, that's been a huge concern on a lot of minds of Utah producers. So, anyway, thank you for sharing that Stephen, kind of to go. Lastly, just kind of a last thoughts. Question here. Is there any other comments or key things you'd like to share with the ag community about therapy or mental health that you might not have mentioned yet, or just something that's been on your mind.
Stephen Bunnell 23:11
Just the importance of agriculture, the whole reason, so a lot of my the, the whole reason I wanted to start working more in agricultural communities is because I felt, I felt this, like, that's where I feel the most fulfilled is working in agriculture or production of food. And, you know, a society can only progress as fast as their agriculture progresses. And so it's like, like, we forget how I think it's easy to forget how much farmers and ranchers and everybody else involved in that these communities how much they provide for for the rest of the country, you know, in the world and and just the importance that you you said it earlier where you're like, okay, the How did you how did you phrase it, it was it was like that the better the the producers healthier the the the farms healthy and and so that's and that's what I like I'm like, yeah, we can help producers to be healthier, we can help the farmer be healthier and his family be healthier, like the farm does better, you know, and, and then and then that just trickles down to everything else. And so just the importance that farmers and ranchers hold and how vital that is. I also think another another thing is just like understanding that the farm and ranching and agriculture life is a it's it's not a normal life. You know, like people have, there's, there's a cultural aspect to it that, that folks deal with that, that is not normal to outside of farming life and the the, I was thinking about it the other day and my, my daughter, we had a, I mean, me and my sister were at a squeeze chute working on cows one time and, and like we were both busy with something and I noticed the the cows were running out towards this gate. And fortunately, there wasn't a bull with them or anything, but they were running out towards this gate and my five year old daughter was standing near there and unlike Eva run, grab the stick and chase the cows away. And, and she she went and did that and like, you know, was able to scare the cows away, get them get them out there. And it was funny, because right after she did that, like I had this, like proud father moment, you know, I'm like, oh, yeah, my kid was like it did that chased the cows away, and stuff. And then right after I was telling her I'm like, Oh, good job, you did awesome. You know, keeping the herd away. And she's like, Yeah, but that was really scary. And, and the thing we forget is like, you know, when we're growing up on farms, there's these big huge jobs that little kids are doing that even adults get nervous doing, you know, and and, and so that that creates this, like this type of anxiety of like trying to how do you say just this anxiety to keep things going and to keep you know and I think that's where that burden comes from, for a lot of farmers and ranchers of putting it all on your shoulders is that like, oh, we have to, we have to like work our butts off to try to make things happen. And so anyways, it's like there's a lot of little tiny issues that you can find that that are significant to the agricultural culture and, and being able to decipher those, it's important.
Josh Dallin 27:15
Well, we certainly appreciate your thoughts and, you know, just your genuine concern and, and being able to share what it's really like to, to explore these services. I have people that are really close and near and dear to me that have experienced some therapy sessions. And that's kind of why I wanted to ask the question that I did about, you know, the results and the outcomes, because every single person that I know, in my personal life, and this is just me and my personal life has benefited from it. They've they've made, you know, changes I love how you talk about, you know, there's there's resources and activities and things to help you to cope with things or help you to change things and make a difference. And, you know, we often share how I love what you talked about, about the the kindness and the giving and the nature that a producer has that they'll do everything for everybody, you know, everything for their livestock, everything for their family, everything for their friends, everything for their neighbors, but to ask for help for themselves is oftentimes one of the most difficult things that's there. And, as we talked about, if if somebody's not willing to ask for that help and get the help that they need, well, then they're not going to be in that place where they can continue to give and help those those around them. So we really appreciate again, your your, your thoughts, if you guys will, will go to our ag wellness website, we have Stephen's information. He is licensed in both Utah and Idaho. And we encourage you to take advantage of his knowledge, the relation that he has to agriculture, and you know, when he talked about it, he's he's seen a lot of similarities with a lot of producers that that are are sharing the same struggles. And he's finding solutions to help those things out. So we'd really encourage you guys to again, go to our ag wellness website, and and look up that type of a resource. Again, we'd like to thank Stephen for his time for being a guest with us today. This has been episode number 10 of the Ag wellness Podcast. I'm Josh Allen and for Jake Hadfield, we say thank you, and we'll see you next time on our ag wellness podcast.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Ag Wellness podcast. Please subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts, visit our website at farmtress.us, and connect with us on social media at Ag Wellness Utah. If you are experiencing stress, mental health concerns, or suicidal thoughts, or if you know someone who is, please contact these resources. As always, if it is an emergency, dial 911.
Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255 Crisis Text Line Text HOME to 741741
Crisis Response Network 1-800-203-CARE (2273)
SafeUT 833-372-3388 or download their app to use the chat feature
If you need help finding a mental health provider, here are some ways to get started:
Contact the person’s health insurance provider and ask about mental health professionals that are within the network.
Psychology Today Service Finder: On this website, you can search for therapists, psychiatrists, treatment centers and support groups in your area. www.psychologytoday.com/us
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA)
• Here, you can find general information about mental health services in your area.
• findtreatment.samhsa.gov/
Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)
• At this website, you can find health centers that offer more affordable options for people that do not have health insurance.
• https://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
• This website can help if you have questions about insurance coverage for mental health.
• https://www.hhs.gov/programs/topic-sites/mental-health-parity/mental-health-and-addiction-insurance-help/index.html
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